427 side oiler vs Shelby alu. block

hockey44 · #1 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 02:25 PM

First I need to disclose I am a novice with regards to the side oiler. I am considering the Kirkham SS coupled with big block and trying to make an informed judgement on the pros and cons of 427 side oiler (likely stroked) as offered by Southern Automotive) vs Shelby alu. block. There is obviously a significant price differential (I gather about $3-4k alone for the block) but of course the weight saving provides small block handling (I assume).

Since I live and work in Switzerland (am from Vermont) one if the most important issues is 'bombproof' as there simply are not FE experts in this neck of the woods. And the thought of crating and shipping an engine to USA for repairs is prohibitive. My intent will be a weekend car (in the nice months) and some track days as I learn to control the beast but I am looking for a combination of 'streetability' with tracklike performance and reliability (if there is such a thing).

Given this will be a 'keeper' I want to get it right from the get go. Unfortunately it is illegal to run sidepipes (I know it makes me cringe) so the plan is undercarrage dual exhausts and then converting when I return home. Has anyone seen an alum. cobra with rear exhausts ?

I would be grateful on your thoughts re 'bombproof big block' which will work with the Kirkham (hence the 427 route).

Many thanks,
Ed

HIQ · #2 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 02:39 PM

IMHO the engine builder and quality of components used will make the difference...not the block.

Cracker · #3 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 03:07 PM

edsherman,

First of all as an owner of a 427 SO engine I can tell you the "scary" thing winding up with less than you bought (ie. bore, block integrity, porosity, etc. etc.). I don't care who sells you the engine - that would be of concern. With that said I would steer you towards the Shelby block. I've visited their facility in LA and was able to witness the final assembly of these blocks while installing the sleeves in a couple. The most important thing is that the parts are all new, if possible and a reputable builder is doing the job. My engine builder, Gary Grimes in Atlanta just showed me on Friday two 427's that had just been overnighted from Japan to the tune of 15K just for the shipping. One was a 427 SO and the other a Shelby engine - both had thrown rods and the sight was ugly. These engines are for his 3000 series Cobra and wanted the best rebuild money could buy - thus they are in his shop. The best don't advertise or at least they don't have to. All aluminum Shelby motor from Gary is about 30K and a 7-8 month wait for comparison if it helps. If interested email me and I will forward his contact info. BTW, he sells engines and blocks to Bill Parnham at SA including standard bore side oilers blocks and Winston Cup motors. Best wishes!

ENTDOC · #4 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 03:46 PM

I am trying to make the same decision for my Kirkham.I have talked to the guys at Keith Craft about one of their shelby blocked strokers(17,000).A part of me still wants the original 427SO so I can honestly say it is like the original(yes I do realize it is a replica).Interestingly,David Kirkham said he much prefers the aluminum motor.With aluminum heads,manifold,water pump the iron motor is fairly light.Right now I am leaning toward the Iron. chuck

thorconstr · #5 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 05:21 PM

The Shelby aluminum block is cast for Shelby by Arias. It is a 427 FE block with oiling and cooling improvements. Its stonger, lighter, and around $5,500.00. Its not original, but better! As is the Kirkham compared to the original. The Kirkham is stronger, lighter, and made to closer tolerances than the original. The aluminum block & Kirkham are a no brainer as far as I am concerned. But then I've had 38 years to think, dream, and save for this. Whatever your decision, it will be what makes you and your pocktbook happy. Best Of luck!

cobra · #6 (**permalink**) 10-07-2003, 11:36 PM

edsherman,

Go with the Shelby aluminum block and don't forget to contact also George Anderson http://www.gessford.com/cobras.htm
Until now I have made very good experiences. ( With George and the engine)

Greetings from Switzerland

Walter

PS: The sidepipes aren't illegal in Switzerland for about three Years.

Turk · #7 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 12:01 AM

Hello Walter.
Haven't heard from you much lately.
I hope the engine and the car are treating you right.

Help your neighbor to pick the right engine and the right engine builder. George has shipped more than one engine to Switzerland. He knows the ropes, the customs and the shippers.

TURK

hockey44 · #8 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 04:36 AM

Hi Turk- thanks for your encouragement! I must confess this 'brotherhood of of bitten' is really amazing and great. I should come clean with explain how I got the "bite".

Growing up in Vermont I had a neighbor with a 427 original (I used to wax it) and the other neighbor had "Elenor"- an original GT500 in the same green. That was I hate to say, 30 plus years ago and now, 5 kids later I am determined to live the dream!

Thank you all for the 'brotherhood of Cobra' and as always your constructive comments are most welcome.

Hope to get it right!
Ed

Allan A · #9 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 08:49 AM

Ed,

We just started driving the "Twins", Alum block 427's that George at Gessford built and we are very happy. The motors were built identical and they perform identical! Thanks again George!

Allan

Turk · #10 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 08:53 AM

Allan,
I undesrtand Rick's idles better and has a better lower end. It also gets 4 more miles per gallon.

TURK

djseed · #11 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 10:05 AM

If you purchase an SC aluminum 427 motor, does the DMV consider it to be a date code correct engine? In other words, for the purpose of smog control, is it a 1965 engine?

scuderia · #12 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 10:42 AM

Cobra
Please have a look in your private mailbox!

regards,
Daniel Meier

Paul Sutphen · #13 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 02:10 PM

I have been told that because the Shelby Alum block uses studs for the heads rather than bolts like the original cast iron blocks, the Shelby heads cannot be lifted off with the engine in place and therefore the engine must be removed. The reason for this problem is that by the time you try to lift the head to clear the end of the stud, the head will not clear the fender. For what it's worth.
Paul

Cracker · #14 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 02:32 PM

Paul, you are probably correct but another solution that I have used since I also use head studs instead of bolts is to simply back out the conflicting studs. You simply double nut the stud and wrench it off. For what it is worth. I would not hesitate for a moment buying a Shelby based Gessford engine. George is extremely knowledgeable and has always been free with his time with and insight. I have not bought an engine but over the last year have been pleased with everything I have purchased from his operation.

In all fairness I have also had a nice conversation with Bill Parnham at SA and would feel comfortable exploring that option as well. Best wishes.

misfit41 · #15 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 06:21 PM

My 2 cents worth,
Unless you find a side oiler block at the end of one of those beautiful Aussie rainbows,I would go with the shelby if for no other reason than the oiling passages are moved up towards the center,and greatly improved at that.
There have been many side oiler blocks melted down with a hole in the left side that would be very repairable had they been shelby blocks.
Another point is the flexibilty of endless boring with replacable sleeves,with any luck it should ast a life time.Tk

Sizzler · #16 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 07:26 PM

If you go with the Shelby block, you might want to have it blueprinted and made ready in the states. As this man in Germany is learning, Shelby doesn't always produce perfect products:

Bore sizing finishing Shelby Aluminum Block
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We´re getting conflicting Infos on the bore size of the shelby alum. block.

The bore in our block is slightly undersized with a 4 thou taper.

We called Shelby twice and got two different answers - my feeling is that it needs to be finished honed to size - but not sure if there is anything special to look out for because of the differnt expansion characteristics of the alum. block.

What do you think ??

Mike (Germany)
68 GT500

.004 Taper?.... October 7 2003, 4:54 AM

Im a little confused by your post. Has the engine been finish bored? That .004 taper is way too much, not good. Trying to finish hone it will not take care of it either. It sounds like it was rough bored and needs to be bored again to a finish size (or a few thousands under) and then final honed to match the clearance recommendations on your pistons. If you leave it go with that much taper, it will definately lead to problems.

Doug

Yes there is a difference of 4 thou between top and bottom of the bore..

Mike (Germany)
68 GT500

Curious about a few things here........ October 7 2003, 7:01 AM

Do the cylinders have a bored finish or a honed finish? It would be hard to bore a cylinder with .004 taper with any kind of a decent boring machine. On the other hand, you can create a taper with a hone with improper set up or an inexperienced operator. How much undersize is the largest part of the taper? If it is .002 or smaller than finish size, you should be able to straighten it out with a Sunnen hone or equivalent (experienced operator required). Seems like for the price of those blocks, they could have done a better job.

The walls have a finished hone crosshatch .. October 8 2003, 12:41 AM

Since the wall had the finished crosshatch on them we kind of expected it to be perfect... but they are not.

Mike (Germany)
68 GT500

ERA 626 · #17 (**permalink**) 10-08-2003, 09:11 PM

For what its worth...
I would HIGHLY recomend George Anderson of Gessford Machine.
He built my CSX aluminum stroker and I am VERY happy with it.
If I had a chance to do it all over again I would buy an ERA with a Gessford built CSX aluminum 427.

:

Cracker · #18 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 06:51 AM

MrMike said "If I had a chance to do it all over again I would buy an ERA with a Gessford built CSX aluminum 427."

mrmike
Senior Club Cobra Member
Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Alamo, CA
Posts: 334
Cobra Make & Engine: ERA #626 427S/C , CSX312 Shelby Aluminum Stroked 427 by Gessford Machine, (REAL ERA) :-)

According to your info you ended up with what you wanted – am I missing something?

ERA 626 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 08:35 AM

I thought this thread was started to get the opinions of the members about aluminum CSX vs. Iron 427 HELLO

I was giving my advice on how I feel about my CSX aluminum motor and the builder.

Cracker · #20 (**permalink**) 10-09-2003, 08:42 AM

Oh - OK - as they said in the '80's, COOL! I'm glad you have it that way and if you could do it again, you would do it the same way. I think the crying face threw me off.



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