Dyno's, Setting the Record Straight

[TerrysSPF]

feguy: I don't want to get your undies in a bunch (or anyone elses, for that matter!), but the med. or high rise 427 Ford would NOT have killed an L-88. Ford's 427 was / is indeed a good engine (I have one!), but the Chevy L-88's didn't even belong in a street car. The cam made them idle like a dragster, and the HP figures on them (425) were WAY underrated (most people said they were between 550 & 600 HP). In fact, they were rated less than the L-89 tripower motors (435) and L-89 cars didn't COME CLOSE to the L-88's at the strip. The only "stock" 427's that were built in the 60's that produced more power than an L-88 were the all alum. ZL-1's by Chevy. Over 600HP and the weight of a small block.
Heck.......that sounds like a good recipe for a Cobra! Too bad the distributor is in the wrong place!

[bmalone]

Malone boyhood recollection circa '67: 427 Lwhateveryouwant vs. 427 Cobra. Vette takes off at the green, Cobra waits about 1 second then takes off. Roars past the Vette at the end of the strip. Englishtwon NJ.

Chevy certainly had many more drag racing titles from that era, but just like in NASCAR and A production racing, the Ford 427 was king of the house. Well, it would be more accurate to say that Ford and Chrysler dominated NASCAR in that era.

[Jamo]

feguy

Welcome Tom, we've heard about some of your work from a few customers in the past.

From you sig line, it appears you may be interested in getting the word out about your business. Might I suggest that you contact Brent Mills, owner of this site, so that you can properly advertise via a banner on the web pages.

Again, welcome.

[weekendwarrior]

I have an "FE Specialties" engine in my garage ready to be installed.

The breakin video sure sounded sweet and Tom was real easy to work with, highly reccomended.

Gary

[misfit41]

I am not starting crap here either,,but L88's wouldnt dream of hanging the with 427s at the strip or elsewhere,,buy some old car mags on ebay,,they werent close,,maybe the L88 was the only 427 chevy that was close to the real {not stated} hp of a medium riser,I just bought an old center oil low rise motor from a guy who owned a a yenko camaro L88 ,when I was 15 he let me drive it around town,even now he says the old fe was the wickedest thing he has ever sat his ass behind,,his words,,Tim

[TerrysSPF]

Hey, I'm not knockin' the FE! Like I said, I have one and LOVE it. I've got almost 600HP and it would dust the L-89 Vette I had in a heart beat! BUT.....the L-88 was a MONSTER of an engine, and the ZL-1 was simply INSANE. I knew guys with Ford and Chevy 427's in their cars, and it wasn't often that the Ford guys beat on the Chevy's. Of course, none of them had Cobra's, though.

bmalone: You can't compare the 427 Cobra with the 427 Vette to determine which engine made more HP. That's like compairing a race between Fat Albert and Carl Lewis. Put 1000lbs in the trunk of the Cobra and see what happens.....or, put the L-88 in the COBRA and I'll bet it runs a better time slip than the FE!

[bmalone]

Terry, there was a one second handicap. That would compensate the weight difference. THis wasn't just one time. It was time after time after time. Enough to give you a pretty indication of power.

And, if you remember, the 427 was a non-factor in NASCAR during the era. Same with A production. Pretty convincing for me. Most of the period literature will tell the Ford 427 and Hemi were the front-runners.

But hey, I'm a Ford guy; so what do you expect.

[Joe Rutledge]

Guys, be nice on comparisons. The 427 ford is one of the most accomplished motors of all time, but does not need exaggeration.

The facts are mostly in the history books.

Whether I (or we) like it or not, the L-88 IN ITS DAY (and the 427 Fords day) was clearly a more powerful motor than the 427 wedge in its day. The 427 wedge compared more favorably with the "standard 427 chebby", but usually the Chevy's were more plentiful and winningful at the drag strip. The modified L-88 in Can-am just killed the modified aluminum 427 Ford in Can-am racing. There were other factors, but the Ford was just not there in the HP/torque curve area (the L-88 also killed the "Boss 494"). The tunnel port was very powerful, but even if it made the same power as a rat at lets say 7500/8000 rpm, I think you would find the rat would do better over a wider range.

To be fair to the 427 wedge, no other engine won races in such a broad racing venue (NASCAR, Drag racing, Endurance, sports, etc). Then again, I already said that.

To be fair to the rat motor, Ford and Chrysler were the only game in NASCAR town from about 1963 on, due to GM's position on racing. Although GM had a skunkworks program, it simply did not have the dollars and factory backing for NASCAR relative to the Ford & Chrysler programs.

To be fair to the hemi, although "factoring" was not officially in place by NASCAR, by the late 60's NASCAR allowed Ford to run what was essentially a non-production head (the tunnel port) with dual four barrels against a single four barrel hemi.

When Pro-Stock got started (which really provided an apples to apples direct comparison), it quickly became clear which engines made the most power. Bill Jenkins and the 427 RAT MOTOR got off to a quick start, but quickly faded. As soon as Sox & Martin got going, they and the HEMI dominated Pro Stock until the rules changed in the early 70's, essentially factoring out the big blocks. The Boss 429 was just a disaster, being all wrong for drag racing, and effectively ended the careers of long time ford racers like "Fast" Eddie Shartman. NO 427 Ford wedge engine was ever near competative in Pro-stock (although there were some attempts with a Tunnel-port). Ford's only shining light was Dyno Don and his Maverick with a 427 SOHC, which scored the ONLY national event win for Ford in that era at Englishtown in 1972 (I know, I was there). His car was always top tier competative, but usually he (shucks) lost to the likes of Sox & Martin (or broke). His car (being a compact Maverick) could also be made to run "very light" on the match racing circuit, which allowed him to post bonzo times. The SOHC had its moments in the late 60's, but just like Mickey Mantle there are so many "could've, should've, would've" comments or stories for that (neat) engine, this forum could be filled with them forever.

Being a little older now, I like them all, and usually avoid Ford vs Chevy contests (unless I am with a Chevy or Chrysler buddy and we are in a needling mood). And I clearly like my FE's. All of my collector cars (running or not) from a 58 Edsel wagon (361) to my shelby mustang have them (427 or 428) have them.

There was a pretty good point made about the Cobra being way way lighter than a 'Vette. A better comparison is how many 427 'Vettes or hemi Cuda's did I want to run when my 67 500 had a 427 hi-riser? (similar weights). The answer is... I was smart enough not to run them (or smart enough to run them when their lifters/carbs were out of adjustment). I certainly wouldn't have run them with my 428 (good as it was, it was much better at disposing of 440's and GTO's).

[RACER X #99]

All anybody has to do is look at the currrent NHRA records. You will see it is dominated by Chevys, Big and small blocks. Sure a few Fords and Chryslers hold some records but it is GM that dominates.

A few of us Ford guys are honest enough to accept the truth.

Cranky

[rdorman]

Originally posted by RACER X #99


A few of us Ford guys are honest enough to accept the truth.

Cranky

What if we know the truth, accept it as fact but still choose to live in our little fantasy world?

Rick

FORD RULES!!!!!!!!

[bmalone]

Hey Joe, thanks for the post--that was well thought out. Good to get all sides in the story. I'm not too big to admit I know little about the L88 and I probably should have kept my big mouth shut. Sounds like one rompin' race motor. How many went into production cars?

Roger, I said in my earlier post that Chevy dominated drag racing from that era. For sure, history supports that. Much as it pains me to say it.

[rdorman]

Join me brother malone and live happily in denial!

Rick

[bmalone]

LMAO, Rick.

[RACER X #99]

Rick and Bill,
We can all make those admissions over here as we don't have the brand X guys here to bust our chops.

We cannot give up on the Fords, perhaps one day our grandchildren will be talking about how the Chevys used to be the big guys on campus. Argueing about which engine to put in their Kirkham replicas of the 2004 Ford GT's.Probably still have to put up with the kid down the block who just bought a Shelby Cobra series 9000 and insists it's a REAL one.

Cranky

[rdorman]

Originally posted by RACER X #99


Shelby Cobra series 9000 and insists it's a REAL one.

Cranky

But....... but........... who will sign the glove box lid

Rick

[Mike Simard]

Originally posted by rdorman


But....... but........... who will sign the glove box lid

Rick

I think Shelby American will 'find' some original signatures that have been in 'storage' for decades.

[rdorman]

Originally posted by Mike Simard


I think Shelby American will 'find' some original signatures that have been in 'storage' for decades.

Rick

[BANDIT 1]

The GM's hold alot of records because they were always cheaper to build and that usually resulted in more cars running GM engines. Just look at PRO STOCK, it's not hard for GM to hold most of the records when there are only a couple of Ford and Chrysler products racing against 20+ GM products.

If the 427 SOHC hadn't been outlawed, it would have dominated much longer than it did.

I also say that the so-called Chrysler Hemi's that have been racing for years are no more a Chrysler Hemi than I am a professional football player.

[Mr427]

Who is the king?

Many journalists are proclaiming the 427 as the king / queen of the racing engines of the sixties and beyond, precisely because of its adaptability and versatility. This is coming out in magazine articles now, almost forty years after the last one was installed in a car by Ford. It took an army of engineers almost seven years to bring this engine into existence. Remember, when CS brought the first ones over to the Nurburgring in Germany in 1965, he had to have the compression lowered to 10,5 because there was no gas available to run them on. Still they won in 1966 and all through 1970 with what was essentially a detuned NASCAR engine with aluminum heads.

Its track record on American and international race tracks is unblemished. It was the presence and force of this chunk of iron that forced the European motorsports elite to rewrite their rules all through in 1970. There, was just nothing anywhere on the horizon that looked like a threat to this monster for another ten years.

On the domestic scene I don´t hink Ford ever received any favors from Bill France. After all, he was the one who deemed the "sock" too much for NASCAR participation and then forced Ford to produce enough Boss engines in cars to homologate them for NASCAR participation. He was right, even if many of his decisions were made in rooms filled with cigar smoke. He, said he wanted real production stuff and after thirty years of knocking him about this, I have to say that he was basically right.

But if you want a real time indication of what the 427 was capable of doing, the truth is out there. It´s all in one man´s name: David Pearson. Study his career, his driving and the cars he drove. We all love King Richard, but once you know the truth about Pearson, you can not help but grin. It is like, when the journalist, in the movie "All the Right Stuff" asked Dennis Quaid playing Gordon Cooper, who was the greatest pilot he ever knew. He went silent for a moment, mumbling something about this guy he knew who would really hang out on the edge and push the envelope, before he flashed his famous grin and said: "Well, you´re lookin at him" He was talking about Chuck Yaeger, of course, and he had the X-1. Pearson had the 427, but he never went to the moon. Petty "did", so he claims all the glory.

......and guys, guess who we have to thank for the fabulous Boss cars? It tell you, it was all due to the persistence of three former GM bosses who moved over to Ford in a royal GM court shakeup in 1967-68; W. "Bunkie" Knudsen, the man behind Pontiac´s performance revolt that GM´s high brass killed in 1963, Pete Estes, the man who desigend and oversaw most of the GTO production and the brilliant Larry Shinoda, who designed and named the Boss cars, their stripe kits and a lot of other stuff.

The Boss 302 was their personal vendetta against GM´s Z-28, which was also their offspring. They stole the glory from GM and I am thankful for that.

On a more somber note, they also fought Fords´management, ending with the untimely departure by Knudsen in 1970. Mr. Ford himself never approved of anything they did except in a grudging sort of way and finally closed down the performance programs in september 1970.

It was done in a forceful and merciless manner. The engineers were told to put down their pencils, turn off the lathes, off with the lights and get out in the middle of whatever they were doing.

Ford´management had a history of killing off products that were exciting and hinted at social entrepreneurism, original thinking. It all goes back to Edsel Ford´s death in 1943. He was really the man who originated the American luxury sports coupe at Ford, with the Mark series V-12 Continentals in the late thirties and forties. We have him to thank for the fact that Ford actually stopped building Model T´s. Otherwise they would probably still be at it. Robert MacNamara killed the original concept for the Thunderbird in 1953-54 and ordered a shrunken version of the ´55 Victoria to be built.

So when GM unveiled the 265 in 1955, Ford was already in such a bad position to respond, that it took seven years until we saw an equal or close to equal product from Ford.

In 1962 Ford unveiled its next pre-production sports car; the Mustang I, a rear engined, two seat prototype that was in many circles regarded as a no nonsense car with a German-built V-4 engine and other equipment that could, with some degree of fine polishing, become a very successful production car. It would have outrun and outsold the Corvair and others like it in the sixties.

When Lee Iacocca saw the crowd that this car attracted he said Ford would not produce a car for the off beat crowd, the grease monkeys like us (you know, some of us grow up; I have three college degrees and three big block Fords and my family has nine other Fords) , so he and Bob MacNamara hastily ordered a reskinning of the Falcon with a long hood and short trunk, an idea they borrowed from Ferrari and other Italian designers. Then they put this little car on Steroids and started pumping it up, until in 1967 the only person who had transformed its performance image; Carroll Shelby, parted the program in disgust.

The clock swung round again in 1973 when America found itself embroiled in another foreign conflict, forcing a rethinking of all major domestic issues, including automobile production. You know, I still keep my Hot Rod Magazine from September 1973. On the cover there is a headline that reads: "Why GM will sell 10 million cars in 1974" Yeah Right! It was not to happen.

Ford had made one of its brilliant product decisions already so this time they were ready with a product as exciting as a can of Campell´s mushroom soup..... and they had the audacity to call one version of it .... Mustang.... So with a 98CID engine and rack and pinion manual steering and the 8-track blasting, we were ready to go.

I almost bought one of these animals a few days ago, but no one would help me put a big block engine in it. I mean, there were sighs from Florida to California. I still do not understand what was wrong.

Mr. Ford had his way as he had done on so many occasions before. If he had had his way completely, we would have had six 427s made, no Cobra jets, no Bosses, but lots of flying Pintos.

The blooming Cobra, Daytona and GT-40 replicaindustry shows further that the cancellation of the scheduled production of the XD Cobra in 1966 -68 was a flat out mistake. The market for these cars really was here all the time. Now, I just can not decide which of the three to build, but build on I will. It is a belated admission of fault that Ford is now finally, thirty five yars later going to build a GT(40) and has unveiled a Cobra prototype that should have been put into production in 1967-68, instead of the rip off of the Porsche 356 that the Cobra really was and still is.

What is he answer: Whatever you like, but I tell you that at the same time Ford kept its doors closed for the rest of us and a few racers had keyes, GM, especially the performance workshops of Chevrolet were wide open. Small block parts were being funnled through by the truckloads and kids driving the stuff kicked Fords north end on the street and on the tracks across America.

All these parts were designed by a man who had worked for Ford briefly in the early fifties. Anyone heard of ARDUN heads? No? Well they were full Hemi heads he had designed for the ageing flathead Ford. His name was Zora Arkus Duntov. He was born in Belgium and fled his native country under Nazi occupation. He was a brilliant engineer. The Corvette in its final form, the small block and a lot of technological breakthroughs were his.

Ford may claim the moniker, but Chevrolet had "the better idea" and actually let it ride. That´s all folks.

[PatBuckley]

Interesting read, thanks.

Could you explain why you think the Cobra is a rip off of the 356? I don't see it.

Pat