Dyno's, Setting the Record Straight

[Mr.Fixit]

The Boss 302 was their personal vendetta against GM´s Z-28, which was also their offspring. They stole the glory from GM and I am thankful for that.

What year(s) did the Boss steal the glory form the Z-28's

[Mr427]

Pat and Mr. Fixit:

I will give you the source of the rip-off statement on Monday, i don´t have the book with me, but the AC Motorcars Ltd management made absolutely no effort to hide the fact that the AC Ace body is more than loosely based on a Porsche design from 1949. Their own words, not mine.

Knudsen, Estes and Shinoda own the major credit for the Boss cars. They had the motivation to put them into production. They already knew the situation at GM with the rising popularity of Trans American Sedan racing.

Ford had a lot of success in the early years of this style of racing, but even the mighty R GT-350 Mustang was having a hard time holding its own in this sport. That is why Ford unveiled the 302 Tunnel Port engine in 1968. In the following year they built the real thing; the Cleveland - Boss 302, which in its utmost racing form put out more than 80 horses more than any form of the 289-302 Windsor.

After that Ford had the upper hand in Trans Am racing, so much so that when its popularity waned, I guess you could say it was because of Ford´s domination.

As for the vendetta against the typical managmenent shakeup at Gm, in which the three gentlemen above were sidelined, they succeeded fully in denying GM its planned glory for the racing Z-28. Just ask Roger Penske, Bud Moore and others who ran the Bosses on the race track.

Those who have heard the Boss at full 8500 rpms on a race track say it is the loudest racing engine they have ever heard.

When the 1969 Boss 302 was ready to go into production, Ford hired people like Mickey Thompson and Ak Miller to race it and put it into endurance testing. They cleaned out several pages in the record books at race tracks across America, including endurance tests at Bonneville.

The sad story of the Boss is that in production form it was a dog. Ford did that on purpose. They installed rev - limiters on it and a docile solid lifter cam and a valve train that effectively barred the engine from going over 6.000 rpms and around 300 horses.

The press called the Eliminator Cougar with this engine (G-code, if you have one rotting in the yard) a fat cat.

Ford won most of its titles with the B-302 in 1969 and 1970 and on and off throughout its career, which I think ended in 1975.

I will face the fact with the rest of you that without the Boss, GM would have swept the field clean all years. The only real threat came from the late great Mark Donohue, who raced Javelins.

To be continued ..........

[bmalone]

I think it is an accepted fact that the Boss was the stronger of the two 302s. If memory serves, Ford won three of the five years, but that would also include 289 powered cars. I have read where the engineering A-curve for the Boss motor would be near 400 HP. I only mention this as a reference in comparing to other engines that did use the A-curve for their ratings.

[scottj]

Ford and Shelby won TA titles '66, & '67 or until the new 302 Z-28s dominated in '68 by winning 10 of 12 races. Shelby destroyed something like 30 Tunnel Port 302s during the '68 season. Ford began '69 by winning with the BOSS 302 but ultimately lost to the Z-28s again when the Z-28s won 6 of the last 7 races. In '70 Penske/Donahue went to AMC, Shelby lost factory support and quit due to a poor '69 showing, and the '70-1/2 Z-28 was a major step backwards. Ford won the '70 TA title by one point (I think?) over AMC, hardly domination. AMC easily won in '71 & 72.

Yes the BOSS 302 was the stronger engine, it just didn't dominate.
Scott

http://www.deepthrottle.com/History/...m_champs.shtml

[Joe Rutledge]

Scott has his history absolutely correct on the Trans am racing.

I don't think it ever could be claimed that the Boss 302 destroyed the Z-28's in 1969. The two were about on parity, with significantly different RPM ranges for their torque & HP. The Boss 302 was revving way higher as mentioned before in one of the posts. It's mid-range was so-so, but when you were pulling 8500rpm it did get different. That's why Ford marketed special racing titianium valves and "9,000 rpm" rods, which were available over the counter thru Muscle Parts. Perhaps the Boss started the season with more power, but Penske via Traco engines probably had something to say about that as the season wore on. For those who weren't following what went on back then, Ford won the first bunch of races just as much on antics as on power - Parnelli and George Follmer played "Dodge-um" cars with "Captain Nice" (Mark Donehue), with the grinding, bumping and banging being VERY severe. But Mark and Penske got the last laugh by beating George and Parnelli at their own game and Chevy took the title. The title was decided less by who had more horsepower, than who drove well and survived the demolition derby (early on things like Parnelli passing Mark, and then slamming on the brakes forcing Mark to bash into things was common - fun to watch or read about if you were a Ford fan, but in retrospect, maybe a bit rough and unsportsmanlike). And as Scott says, the Boss barely "squeaked by" AMC of all things the next year.

On the subject of the 302, it probably made more top end power than the Z. But narrow band top end power alone does not really make an engine "more powerful". This was during Ford's dubious era of huge intake ports with crappy exhaust ports. The fact was the Boss 302 was lacking in mid-range HP and torque relative to its competion, let alone on the street. I don't remember my friends Boss being too bad, certainly just has fast or faster as another friends 66 GT-350 (on the street), but I do remember the then "enemy's" Z's being just as fast overall (everybody on the street disconnected the rev limiter, as did many of the magazine tests). And frankly there were just as many or more "good running" Z-28's than "good running" Boss 302's. Doesn't mean I don't love the Boss or think it and the Boss 429 were two of the hairiest looking and well executed Mustangs ever made.
When you moved the 302 boss head to the 351 (becoming a 351 Cleveland-4V), things got much better because of more cubic inches for the intake port/valve. But don't forget the 302/351 was ultimately handicapped by exhaust problems noted above, which caused Ford pro-stock racers to devise all sorts of "correction" programs to fix the head, like lopping off the entire exhaust section of the head, and "bolting" on "high port" exhaust plates (about an inch thick) to fix it. The 351 did not win in Pro-Stock until this mod was done. Later on, hi port heads became available which fixed the problem. The Boss 302 kind of had the reverse problem of the Boss 429 in this area. If I remember correctly, the Boss 429 exhaust port was OK, but the intake port huge or not was bad because it was designed to go under the Torino Talledaga hoodline for NASCAR. Probably a classic case of both designing a port based on hoodline and expected NASCAR RPM range. Which is probably why it was deficient for drag racing and the street in general. Towards the tail end of Big block pro-stock in the early 70's, Gapp & Rausch were "cutting and pasting" the top end of the 429 intake port trying to make it better so they could attempt to come close to the SOHC in power output. They got close, but never really did make it, the Pro stock rules changed making small blocks the only way to go and so on.

Joe

[SFfiredog]

Mr427,
Thanks for the info. You must have cramps from all the typing you've don today
It is amazing that AC attemped to copy the 356 and came up with the Ace, which turned into the Cobra. The two cars look so completely different than each other. They must have put the plans on the drawing board backwards because the engine in the Ace is in the wrong end of the car! They should have left the copying to the Chinese, they do it much better
Please post some more from that book, I bet it makes great reading.
I used to drag race with Boss 302 in a Maverick.
I would shift at 8800 rpm and went through the lights at 9200 rpm, with stock crank and rods!
When used as intended the Boss 302 was an awsome engine.
I still have a complete short block and 2 sets of heads and manifolds under my work bench
Regards,
--Mike

[Anthony]

The AC ace body style , http://www.conceptcarz.com/folder/ph...ehicleTypeID=0


was a copy of a ferrari, 1949 Barchetta 166, http://people.bu.edu/jwiley/pebble97...66_Touring.jpg


not a porsche.

[RICK LAKE]

SFfiredog Mike those blocks are high nickel, more webbing for support and a better oiling system, 4 bolt mains. The cranks where steel as well as the rods. Forged pistons where included with this motor. I kid I went to shool with had a yellow 302 boss. He raced at E-Town and put the rods through the block, he ended with a great boat anchor. Kelly was killed 2 years later street racing. Car was split in half by a tree. They towed it to his parents house and covered it. Both his parents died and the car went with the house auction. This was 2 1/2 years ago. The ID was worth the price of the car. Anyway He turned that motor to 9 grand all the time. He had 4.88 in the rearend. Tough motor. Rick Lake

[TerrysSPF]

I had a 69 Z-28 in the late 70's / early 80's. DZ 302 motor "rated" at 290HP. Had a couple friends with Boss 302 'Stangs, another guy had a Mach1 w/ a 351 Cleveland, and 2 other buddy's with Chevy's: 68 Camaro RS w/ 396 and a 70 LS-6 Chevelle. The only guy that could take me from "light to light" was the guy with the 454 Chevelle (I eventually ended up buying it from him!). The 2 guys with the 302 Mustangs weren't even close (from light to light). When we would get on the highway and start playing around "at speed" (jumping on it from around 70mph or so....) then both 302's (Ford & Chevy) were almost identical (side by side) until we would have to back off. In fact, if anything, at higher rpm's they would squeez ahead of me. BOTH engines would run well into the RPM band without breaking a sweat. In fact, I used to play around (usually showing off if I had someone in the car) and drive all the way into town in only 2nd gear.......revving the $hit out it, almost daring it to blow up. It never did.
To this day, I look back and consider my Z as probably the best car I've ever owned. It did EVERYTHING well, and I never had a mechanical problem with it EVER (and I beat the snot of it). I ended up selling it to buy my friends LS-6 Chevelle. The Chevelle was faster (MUCH faster after I tossed a fiberglass hood and a 6-71 blower on it, it ran into the 9's w/ slicks), but it never seemed to be as "fun" as the Camaro. Plus, I was always under the hood fixing something......and it was big $$$ to keep it running well.
.......ahhhh.........THOSE were the days.......

[Jamo]

So Rick, I just want to make sure I understand, you're saying that Boss 302s blow and kill people, but by golly they have a tough motor?

[G.R.]

I'm with Terry. I had a '68 Z-28 302, factory limited production series--rated at 325hp. Factory tuned headers. Used to go "Ford hunting". Several times I ran it at Cheyenne Raceway in WYO, a dragstrip and did ok in my class nothing spectacular, but got a trophy or two.
Rarely lost in the "light to light" drags. We tweaked it some with a cam and Edlebrock hi-rise and a AFB "D"series carb. Side by side with a Boss302 @speed (70+) I could pull ahead, then walk away. At 80+ you could feel the front and rear spoilers take effect the car would begin to squat and tighten up. Over a hundred the car flew running easily at 6800 rpm with a redline of 7400. Ran from St. George,UT to Las Vegas never under a 100, often with the speedo needle bouncing off the 120 stop with still 5-600 rpm left to redline at speed.
Wish I still owned that car today(especially after this years BJ). Only car I've had ,except for the Cobra, that you could "punch " doing 25-30 and lay two strips of rubber and set you in the seat.
But I was always a Chevy guy, except I loved the Cobra and Daytona coupe, oh well bitten by a snake as a kid.
All in all though there are only three cars I wish I still owned the Z-28, the '67 327, 'Vette roadster, and the '57 Chevy Sedan Delivery I had in high school with the 327 and T-10.
memories.

Whether Chevy's 302 was better than Fords Boss 302--choose your camp and defend your marque, because it really makes no difference today, because today there are hi-po Fords running some Chevy internals and vice-versa, it's all about hp and performance

[Mr427]

Some corrections:

Ah, Ferrari it is. So much the better.

I have no doubt about the Z-s ability on the street. Without the B-302, Ford would not have had half the success that they had in those years. I also said I thought the Boss was a dog on the street. Nothing new here.

I also hinted at a negative opinion at Ford for ever releasing the B. on the street in the form they did, and don´t forget, they already had the 351 Windsor in production. The Boss heads fit on that block with minor modifications. But Ford chose not to go that way as is to be expected preciseoy for all the aforementioned reasons: Ford hated racing in the streets, from what I hear and never enxouraged people to buy new cars from the company with that single purpose in mind. All that high performance stuff was just for image building and monday morning shop talk and sales.

I read the "Requiem for the Z-28" that was published in HRM when GM killed it the first time. In that article there is a tale of a ´69 Z-28 being driven across Death Valley at full song, open headers and all. It was the best description of the car that I have ever read and after reading this story, you just knew it was different and perhaps a little more interesting and capable than all the rest.

I remember seeing and hearing a number of ´69 Z´s driving around several US cities and ther is an aura of correctness about the car. Its stance, height, forward tilt, the way it sits on a pavement says a perfect ten, a touchdown, if you will.

As for my previous ramblings, I just can not believe I wrote all that stuff. And I was sober. Do not have that excuse.

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by G.R.



Rarely lost in the "light to light" drags. We tweaked it some with a cam and Edlebrock hi-rise and a AFB "D"series carb. Side by side with a Boss302 @speed (70+) I could pull ahead, then walk away.

So, since this thread has turned into a clarification one, you're saying your (highly) modified Z-28 was able to pull away from a stock Boss?
Congratulations?

Since the new Cobra design has elicited so much comment about it's design, and not its internals, let me just further jump in here by saying I never liked the looks of the Z and the Boss was way ahead of it in that race. Always looked like it was carrying a little bloat compared to the leaner looking Boss. My opinion only of course.

[weekendwarrior]

Correct me if I am wrong. The stock Z28-302 had a 4.10 rearend ratio and a M21 trans. The Mustang Boss302 had a 3.50 rearend and a Toploader.

Apples for apples a 4.10 beats a 3.50 off the line any day of the week. Gears are gears.

Gary

[Anthony]

Mr427,

the ACE body was a copy of the ferrari, but the chassis, transverse leaf spring with lower control arms was kind of a copy of a ( I think) Fiat 500 Topolino. So Tojero, incorporated the ferrari body style with another chassis design, a chassis designed to be light, incorporating the leaf springs to act as the upper control arms to save weight, but at the same time, because of the long "arm" of rotation, it wasn't an ideal set-up for maintaining proper camber on hard cornering.