Shelby Aluminum

[Jamo]

I don't think those trade off numbers are necessarily true.

Depends on the cam, etc. I would think.

BTW...grunt is good.

What do others think?

[Ron61]

Incredible,

I read 9 pages of posting, a lot by the worlds two best engine builders demanding to see a dyno sheet. Then when one was posted they spent two pages telling how it was a lie. They both make engines with thousands of horsepower but don't post a dyno sheet to show theirs. And yes, dyno figures can be rigged, but I don't think these were. As for all their experience driving high power cars, they should consider the fact that they are just two people and there are a lot of people in this world that have driven cars with over 850 horsepower. I am not, nor never have been into drag racing at all. And on a road race course, there is usually little need for 700+horsepower. To many tight turns and not many long straights. But I did gain something from all of this, my engines are better than anyone else's stuff. One more post to my account and I don't have to have a dyno sheet for it.

Ron

[rdorman]

Group hug!

Rick

[Excaliber]

Quote:
"Robert Pond has the A/S national record at 9.89 in a 67 Fairlane with a 427 engine that has to us the original cast iron heads, stock compression, dual plane intake and the stock 780 carburetor with a .525 lift rule."

That IS fascinating. What kind of h.p. do you think that motor made? If a "virtually" stock FE can run in the 9's in a fairly heavy body car then certainly a replica Cobra can do the same?

As I've recently learned (over at Gasholes) the difference may be a "dedicated drag race car", hard launch, slicks, etc. AND, this Fairlane, less weight than a replica Cobra?

I've got 650 plus flywheel horse and run in the 11's with a 2800 pound ERA. You would think 9's would be a piece of cake with the right suspension setup?

[misfit41]

WOW
This is a first for me,,I have actually followed a thread from the start,and I am still in agreement with the majority,am I losing my edge ? :} Tim

[Jamo]

Ernie...you're not allowing for driver error.

Misfit...you're just getting old.

[MidOHasp]

Originally posted by Jamo


grunt is good.

Jamo Gekko...

I agree that grunt is good. I just look at the tradeoff like this:

I wanted grunt more than anything. Torque Monster was the skunkworks name for my engine when I was designing it on paper, reading books, reading build stories, etc... I said "stroke = torque" (basically) and built a motor around that.

I picked smaller than usual heads, a smallish intake manifold, a 408 stroker kit, and said "let's see how much torque we can build. The horsepower will come."

I am not sure I'd want to spin a 30 year old 2-bolt-main 351W based motor up past 6500RPM. No need because it is the "torque monster"...

But if I were to ditch the juiced lifters, open the breathing up (big intake, big heads, bigger tube headers), up the valve spring size to the next level, and put in a higher RPM cam, I think I'd probably shave a lot of bottom-end for a much bigger top-end.

I'm sure you're right: I highly doubt that the tradeoff would be that bad. I was curious, though, what people have seen out of some really hairy aluminum FE's. It'd be nice to not have to give up 150 lb-ft, but I'd imagine even IF I had to, I could still white the tires pretty easily on a 2500 lb car. 400 lb-ft (now I'm talking about from the Windsor) would still be fun. 550 is nice, though.

600+ horsepower would be a LOT of fun not to mention the sound of winding up to 7+K RPM. At that point, I wouldn't care too much about torque. It would be there. Where else would the HP come from?

But on the other hand, I'd probably never yank the rotating assembly...why not?! It's perfectly good, forged, all ready to roll. So, engine #2 it is...

Now, in a big block, I get 19 cubic inches and get to de-stroke 1/4 inch. Not to mention, new block, built tough as nails, ready for twice the horsepower I could ever handle in a Cobra.

Can you say 8000 RPM FE? Through the shorty sidepipes? Holy $hit. Webers? Do webers work that high?

My question is...has anyone done anything like this in the Cobra world? I think it would be ridiculous...in a good way.

All fun in the brain and on paper . . . as long as the checkbook is closed!

[misfit41]

Jamo,
Thanks for blowing my cover,,I was hopeing no one noticed,,heheh Tim,

[RICK LAKE]

rdorman Rick the group hug is OK but get your hand off my $SS Rick Lake

[MidOHasp]

RICK LAKE Rick I got your email

[steelcomp]

It seems apologies are in order. Throughout this thread, I was of the mind and intention to keep things on an objective and impersonal level, and thought I was doing just that. However, after listening to the responses, and before responding to them, I felt as if I should re read what has been posted and responded to, and I have to say that I have not been as objective as I had hoped I could or thought I was being. To those of you which I offended, I apologise. My comments that were made for the purpose of insult and belittlement were inappropriate and uncalled for.

Some of you probably know who I am. If you read back through the threads, I offered that I am the S of G&S, who, with my father, bought Butler Cobras. There's a story there that I will not go in to, but for those of you that assesed that I have "issues", you are correct, and I apologise, again, for not recognising just how much distain I have for this INDUSTRY, not the people in it. I made some sweeping comments out of frustration, which I will address, but the jest of my comments were never at people. Unfortunately it's hard with just the printed word to accurately communicate what tone of voice and facial expressions might otherwise explain. Some of what I said was taken very far out of context. Understandably so. I hit some sensative nerves, obviously. That was probably my intention, and I'll not justify it, but there is an explaination. I took a huge chance, and my father as well, and together we put our hearts and souls, and every pennie we had into the Cobra arena, and were lied to, swindled, and cheated by almost every one who had the ability to. I trusted with all I had, two of the most legendary icons in this replica (and authentic) Cobra world, only to have both of them blatently and without conscience intentionally falsify information, financial figures, and intention. Yes it ended in court, but we had to walk away after being drained of all our funds, having nothing left. Ther was no support from anyone. I have a feeling that the Butler name was doomed from the get go, after hearing of his attitude and opinion of the same industry.
I mentioned two icons. The other was Steve Arntz aka David Norman of whom I will reserve comment except for to say that his day will come. I came away from my experience with him with nothing. He "relieved me" of over 20K worth of tools, inventory, and personal property and files including my Cobra customer base. He was ordered by a judge to return most of the property with a follow up court date, neither of which did he obey, and that was the last I saw of him or my possessions. When I say I left that experience with nothing, I meant it in the literal sense. To this day I do not understand his motivation for doing such a thing. Some of those things can never be replaced.

It's been 5 yrs. since I even spoke about a Cobra. In the begining I tought I would see what was "out there", my curiosity and passion for the damn car getting the better of me. I found this web site, and was reading some posts. I saw "Shelby Aluminum" and it cought my eye. I was lucky enough to have worked with Mike LeFevers at Shelby as one of my customers wanted an all aluminum 427. That was an interesting experience. Some of you may remember the rolling chassis. I took it to Knots Berry Farm and won 1'st pl. Mfgr trophy for that car. First time out. I worked 100 hrs+ a week for a year trying to make a business go that was so mis represented, it was never going to go! But I tried.
I started reading the post about the KC engine, and as I admitted before, I had read past the first thread, and seen in the second and third that the numbers were corrected to 760+ hp.

Here's where I still hold my ground. I questioned those numbers, and, first of all, no one corrected me of the error untill several pages later, but the fact remains, and still to this moment, no one has told me how or why those (corrected) numbers are correct. I kept getting comments from the peanut gallery, and there was all kinds of support for the fact that every one believed they were correct. There was even a dyno sheet, that I immediately found out and pointed out discrepancies about (which still haven't been answered). I really never intended that it was impossible, just that through my experience, that kind of HP requires more compression, cam and carb than how the motor was described. I don't believe much of what I'm told, especially byb a bunch of guys who have a very srong EMOTIONAL investment in this, nor do I look at someone's dyno sheet and accept that as gospel. I was looking for a techiniocal explaination fo how that kind of power was made with those given parameters. I haven't folowed super stock drag racing for years, and frankly never did. The FE was great in it's day, and I can admit, it seems as if it has made a come back, in it's own world. I wasn't looking for an arguement, or a debate, or anything else. Hell, I love to be proven wrong...I can be very opinionated...and love to learn. My experience isn't the point here. My point is that I raised some questions (and recognise that I might have presented them better) that still, no one has answered. I don't care about a 9 sec. Fairlane. That dosen't tell me "how!" Don't tell me I'm wrong and expect me to just say "OK" because you say I am. I'm not claiming something here that I need to defend. I know what I know and don't have to prove anything. I'm the one raising questions and doubts, and no one has given me an answer yet. Not one. A lot of lynch mob mentality rock throwing (which I may have started) but not an answer yet.

I again sincerely apologise for not recognising where my emotions were regarding this whole subject. I am angry. I have a right to be, and I guess I took it upon myself to take it out on all you good people. It was unfair, inappropriate, and childish. Please accept my sincere apology, and offer some understanding in return.

Scott Foxwell

[steelcomp]

PS
Can I go wash my face, now. I hate raw egg, and crow feathers traste like...crow feathers.

[computerworks]

Scott...

I'm buyin' you not one, but two beers.


..glad you came back and cleared things up a bit.

[Excaliber]

Scott
It has been my experience here with the folks on Club Cobra they are quick to forgive and forget when mistakes are corrected. Often the discussions are controversial, sometimes they do get out of hand. Cobra owners, in general, tend to be "type A" personalities after all.

Welcome to the club (or the asylum if you wish )

I for one WOULD like more information on the 9 second Fairlane. NO controversy on that issue for me, a very interesting part of FE history there is what I see. I'm really happy and proud to be a genuine 427 side oiler owner.

[steelcomp]

Wow, earnie. Now THAT's my dream car. A real 427 67 Fairlane.

I'd go right past a Cobra for one of those (no offence to anyone)

[Jamo]

Well come on in and grab a beer. I admire someone showing some class.

Big Yak

[misfit41]

Steelcomp,,
There you go,,MADE me respect you all over again :}
I enjoyed your post,,any one can have a bad day,, but only the good ones admit it,I relate,,I have been shot down too,and I felt exactly like you do,,and surely made some regrettable post {usually after a couple beers},,not to mention stupid acts,
anyway,,thanks for being a stand up guy,,all iswell that ends well,,Tim

[PatBuckley]

Thanks.

[Keithc8]

The 67 Fairlane I spoke of is a NHRA legal Stock eliminator drag car. To fit the class of A/Stock it has to weight in at 3550 pounds. This car runs a Jerico 4 speed with a lightweight trick clutch set up and 9 inch Ford with 5.29 gears. We turn these engines 7600RPMs threw the lights and shift at 7200RPMs. The 427 sideoiler cam out as a race engine and then with the rules that they allow in Stock eliminator plus some extra tricks to the engine we have been able to get about 630HP out of these engines. You have to remember these are 16,000.00 special built race engines for this class. I was just using this as an example on how far we have come with the FE engines.
For another example Shawn LeBlance owns the Super Stock GT/A record with an 69 428 engine in a late model body. He runs this engine in a 89 Mustang that weighs 2950lbs. He is allowed to run lighter pistons, port the heads but retain the stock factory cc volumes which NHRA has set at 155cc intake and 123cc exhaust[not very big]. They can run a solid roller camshaft, after market intake and the stock 735 carburetor. The engine has to remain stock compression. Shawns engines makes a little over 700 HP and this is with the stock 428CJ heads and .060 over bore. His record is 9.06 at 146 mph and if you slide rule this it shows he has to make about 730 to 740 to go that fast. Remember these are all out drag race cars and 60ft very well and have evry trick to get them down the drag strip. You can pick up a National Dragster and look these records up in the back. This might interest some people because they have to compete against the Chevys and Mopars.
The technology on the FE has come a long way in just the last 5 years. We have better blocks for better ring seal, lighter pistons, better rings, lighter cranks with smaller rod bearing sizes for less drag. Better camshaft designs, much better cylinder heads with better flow and velocity. The intakes are much better as well. When you think about it when you have 482 to 496 cubic inches it should not be that hard to make between 600 to 700 HP with a 10.8 to 1 engine. You make up for tha lack of compression by having good air flow through out the lift range of the head and with the proper camshaft you fill the cylinder better than done before and create the compression dynamical rather than statically. I guess we have had to build these low compression engines when doing the Stock and Super Stock engines and have gotten good at it. These Cobra engines we build have way better parts than the other FEs we have had to build over the years. I guess this is why I do not see the big deal with the good HP numbers. The engine is an air pump and with good heads, intake, carburetor and camshaft you should be able to make these HP numbers with these large cubic inche engines. The engine does not know it a FE. The valve train is another area that has come a long way on these engines and helped control the valves better. When you have cylinder heads that will flow 340@.600 lift and 482 cubic inches it makes these HP levels very real and possible. Not trying to cause trouble just bring a better product to market. Hope this helps a little. Thanks Keith

[decooney]

Pumpin Air and then some!