Shelby Aluminum

[steelcomp]

Snake bitt...take a nap. Jees, what is it with you guys, any way? I didn't say ONE derogatory comment about KC. I just asked the kind of questions that would help me understand the difference in his motors vs. others. You're a good little groupie, and I'm sure he appreciates you running to his aid, but there's no threat here, so you can just relax. I thought we were over this? These are BASIC engine design questions that anyone who calls himself an engine "builder" should be able to answer without giving away his "secrets". If you knew enough about what goes into the dsign of an engine, you would know that, so just back off and let some of us have an objective, impersonal, friendly conversation about things that we understand. All right? Besides, no one has a gun to his head to answer anything he dosen't feel comfortable answering.
And I sure don't need KC to tell me how to design an engine. (No offense KC) I'm not interested in FE's. As good as he's gotten them, for which I think he deserves his due credit, they're still outdated by today's contemporary engine standards, which is more where my interest lies. I'm impressed with the gains that have been seemingly achieved. I'm curious as to the improvements that have been made, and where. I'm still a little skeptical, but not as doubting as I was. Some good points have been made through this post in his defense, but I still haven't gotten the answers that I'm looking for to be convinced. The questions I asked are based on the areas that I would expect to make some of the significant differences. Notice I didn't even ask about a cam.
Just calm down!!!!

[steelcomp]

Thank you Keith. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer some of my questions. I would never expect you to answer those questions that would give away your secrets. I've been involved in some of the cyl. head technology that you have learned and are learning about and I understand your answers clearly. The concepts are decades old. The application is what is constantly changing and improving. When last I was fully involved , it was 1996 and CNC porting was new technology. I was working for one of only three companies that were doing it, and at the time, we purchased a Boston Digital with all the soft ware being designed in house by one of the two who pioneered the technology, one being Kenny Weld, anbd the other, Brian Semperbaum (sp?). The terms I used in my questions were daily work talk, and since then I have tried to keep my finger on the pulse of "what's new". I still have a good connection with most of those who I worked with and what they're doing. When I was doing my Cobra thing in 1998, the FE was still an "old engine" and I always wondered if someone would ever invest the time and money to bring it forward. I see they have. You addressed a number of areas that I knew were real stumbling points for the FE, especially push rod restriction, and valve train, knowing that overcoming those major issues was going to take exactly what you described. I'm glad you have accomplished what you have.

Thanks again for your time.

[BANDIT 1]

What we have learned most here is what ol' Bandit has been saying from the start, EVEN with the great improvements KC has done the facts are simple.....the 385 series Ford engine is far better than the ol' FE.

[MidOHasp]

hmmm....definitely sounds like the FE is plagued by a lot of shortcomings.

I'm not saying anything horrible about them, it's still the engine that powered the big Cobras in the 60's and hence: it is THE ONE.

I wonder what life would be like (I know it ISN'T WHAT IT IS LIKE so I am just WONDERING out loud) if they originally came with 460's.

Would we even be having these conversations? Would it be clearer?

[misfit41]

please please Guys,,lets not start this argument here again,,its been a great thread,,even though Steelcomp has gotten back to being insecure :}lol,,Tim

[Turk]

J.P.
What would it be "if they came with 460s?"...

They WOULD be TRUCKS!!

TURK

[Excaliber]

FE's rule. Long live the FE.

[BANDIT 1]

I think that if Ford was still racing the Cobra and selling them into the late 1960's/early 1970's that the Cobra would have "evolved" into the 429 S/C Cobra or 460 S/C Cobra. Chevy did the exact same thing when they switched to the 454 engine in the Corvette. The 454 was also mostly in trucks after the early 1970's, does that make the 454 a truck engine?

The hi-performance 429 engine's were in the Torino, Mustang, and Cougar's just to name a few, I would hardly call those "trucks".

[RICK LAKE]

Steelcomp I want to thank you for doing a great service to all the CC members. Everyone of you have built or brought an engine for either a machinist or engine builder. Steel just pointed out alot of GOOD info all should be asking before buying their next motor or having there heads done. You may have been out on the picture for a while but it seams you still are on the edge of head flow and builder latest works. Gald you came back. I am sure that KC would spend a hour talking to you about VE% flow rates, moving ports off set lifters and so on. I have one question about off set lifters, I know that most blocks are bushed but the off center push on the lifter must rub against the bore of the hole. Does it cause a wear problem. Short term racing OK No street motor is going to live that long with this configuration ? I would think a roller lifter would have an easier time than a solid or flat tappet. Rick Lake

[steelcomp]

I was having the same conversation re: the 385 series Ford engine on another site. This is what I wrote:
http://www.realjetboats.com/cgi/yabb...num=1088829734
If you care to look.

The 385 was probably the best designed factory performance engine ever built for many reasons. It started in '68, and was Ford's answer to the canted valve BBChevy. The Ford engineers took all the weaknesses found in the BBC and designed the 385 around that info. The reason the 385 never became more popular is the simple fact that in 1970 Ford dropped out of racing. Those were the beginning years of development for the 429, and it was definately showing it's teeth. Unfortunately, the after market industry never followed up after Ford dropped the ball, and the 429 basically stayed a passenger motor, with a few truck applications, untill not too long ago. Many were raced, but there were so few parts that were available, they (the racers) were forced to go with what was there, the BBC.
IF... Ford had continued developing the 385, the BBC would not be the main stay of most racing today.
IF...Ford had continued the Cobra, I doubt the 385 would have been chosen...too big, too heavy. (The 427 was already a miserable handling car...I'm sure I'll hear from you Cobra replica owners with 460s for that comment.)
There were some real nice versions of the 385, like the SCJ with four bolt mains, solid cam, forged pistons, high rise and holley, and good cast headers. The heads were a mistake in "bigger is better" but that would have been overcome. The Police Interceptor was probably the best 429 made.

Today there is no limit of state of the art hardware for the 385 engine, and it offers no apologies. In my opinion, there's not a better engine out there, weather you're on a budget, or want to go all out. You want to test the meat of an engine? Go boat racing. More and more, the 385 is gaining popularity among enthusiast and hard core alilke. Don't see many FE's though, although KC has me wondering.
Hmmm. There was never such thing as a 496" FE before.

Misfit...you got me there, pretty insecure, and afraid to speak my mind, too. Thanks for pointing that out.

[steelcomp]

Rick,
Your question has merit, but I'm not sure that there's the side loading you're thinking of. At just about any given point of travel of the valve train on a canted valve head, the push rod and lifter are off line, thereby causing some side loading. An offset lifter is usually paired with an offset rocker, so the angle really hasn't changed much, so I don't think there's "more" side loading going on. And yes, they (lifters and blocks)wear. Lifters, especially, since cast iron is more durable (harder) than steel. Look at a set of used roller lifters some time and see what they look like. It's why most guys will sell a set after a season. The sides are worn out. The reason most flat tappets dont wear like that is they never have the kinds of spring pressures that a roller sees. Also, a roller lifter dosen't spin in the bore like a flat does. I would think this would actually add more friction, causing more wear in the bore, but it's neglegable.
Blocks that are bushed are usually done so to correct mis alignment from the factory. (Does Shelby bush theirs? Most alum blocks I've dealt with aren't.) I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference, but there is some parasitic friction there to consider.

Hmmm.
KC?

[SnakeBitt]

Steelcomp: You want ME to take a nap? Sounds like YOU'VE been the one napping while while others have made progress on getting more power out of the FE.
Me a groupie? No........but I am a business man. If I told all the other builders out there how I can build a quality home for less money then they can, then they ALL would be doing it.
Bottom line is, out of all the questions you asked Keith, they all add up to 1 main question: "Man, how are you getting THAT kind of HP out of those FE's?"
If he told you that........everybody would be doing it.

You came here with a negative attitude and were basically calling Keith's dyno figures Bull$hit. You seem to be coming around a little, but only because of KC's responses. But the way I see it is, if you really wanted to know more about what Craft is doing, you would call him on the phone where the 2 of you could really talk. Instead, you post all your negative comments here in public to try and smear his name / reputation (especially when you 1st arrived). Like I said before, you seem to be coming around some. Good for you......good for the forum. On a positive note, because of some of your posts, I think we have all learned quite a bit from KC. Again......good for the forum.
I'm just looking at this in a business perspective. If you owned a restuarant that made the best damn soup around and people came from miles away just to eat there, would you be giving everyone your recipe?

[BANDIT 1]

When I was in high school (1987), I saved up for a 900 horsepower "detuned" 460 stroker engine (Ricky Smith Pro Stock engine, with the TFS heads). My father wouldn't let me purchase it, so I bought a 1973 Mercury Cougar conv. and a home stereo system instead.

Don't forget all of the 429/460 engine development with Bigfoot and the rest of the monster trucks.

[steelcomp]

snake bit...hey, man, what's troubling you? It's really sad the way you're carrying on. You seem to be a mighty angry man, and I really feel your pain. Come on, talk to me. Let's just you 'n me figure this thing out, OK? Go ahead, let it all out! It's ok, man, we're here for ya'!
Gee, I wish I could help, but you've got problems! I'd see someone if I were you.

Best of luck to you!

[steelcomp]

Imitation is the highest form of compliment.

[SnakeBitt]

Carrying on????

Don't tell me "I feel your pain". The last person that did that raised my taxes.

Imitation puts money that would normally be going into the inventors pockets, into someone elses.

I'll see what I can do about "seeing someone". Sometimes my Degree in Business narrows my mind and only allows me to view things in a "business perspective" (ie: $$$$$). I'll admit, it's a bad habit. I'll work on it.

Thanks for your best wishes. I'm glad you're there for me.

[misfit41]

wow,,,,were back to normal,,it really sucks that with all the experience and obvious knowledge on this forum,that we cant just all be friends and offer advice and help,,opinions are ok,,but these 8th grade debates are getting old,,we all have our passions and our favorites,,I am trying to think of a really bad engine ford made,,I cant,,the argument is old,,and juvenile,,
so,,does anyone watch Simple life 2 ? Tim

[Keithc8]

I want everyone to know that I agree the FE would not be my engine of choice for all out performance. We work on the small blocks and the 385 series as well. There is no doubt the 385 series engine is a better designed engine with its better heads and larger bore spacing block. With that said I will build anything my customers want, it just seems a lot of them want FE's in these cars. I also found that a lot of people were paying a lot of money for weak FE engines and seemed like a good market with a more mature buyer than a lot of the small block street and drag racing engines we were doing. I currently have about 15 after market cast iron and aluminum small block in stock, about 10 FE after market blocks and 5 460 cast iron racing blocks. So you can see we work on all of them and try to keep parts for them. Our small block strokers are quite popular with the Cobra guys as well. They all have there place, just depends on what the customer wants. Thanks Keith

[Keithc8]

The biggest problem we have seen with the off-set lifter is that it seems to wear the roller wheel out quicker. Actually the needle bearings in the wheel of the solid roller lifters. This why in most cases we use a set of 2100.00 Jesel lifters with the much larger wheel that can take the added spring pressures and side load on the wheel. I have found that when aluminum blocks are used in these extreme conditions that we busch the block for better life on the lifter bore. We are now running some of these engines with 420lbs seat and 1100lbs open. These are the only lifters that the Pro Stock guys can get to live as well as the Busch guys. We run them mostly in our Turbo and blower small blocks in the Pro 5.0 stuff because of the spring pressures and we are turning these engines 9500rpms and making 2200HP. We use them in the dirt late model engines as well because we will put about 1200 laps on them between freshen ups and we run more spring pressure on them than ever before with 9000 rpms. The other lifters will not take the abuse. I think we do not have to worry about this to much in these replicas. The Jesel lifters also last about 5 times as long as the regular 300.00 lifters and if you ever break a solid roller lifter those needle bearings make a big mess of the engine. We also go to the bigger .903 and .930 mlifters as well because then you can have even a larger roller wheel. Its just cubic dollars. Thanks Keith

[Jamo]

SnakeBitt and steelcomp

I'd appreciate it if you two lads would avoid each other in the sandbox for a little while.

Jamo--Moderator and Doctorate Holder Who cares about level of education here...we're all stupid for driving these damn things.