Shelby Aluminum

[mr bruce]

Glidden carried Ford in pro stock,with a bare minimum of factory help .He even switched to Plymouth(Dodge,Chrysler) one year and still killed everyone else.The guy is a genious, Of course there was a little thing called propoleen that might have helped according to some rumors back in the day. Toyota, Honda, and the rest will be in Nascar soon(already in the truck series). Ford's days are numbered.

[BANDIT 1]

I'm not really sure how the FE and 385 series discussion turned into Ford -vs- Chevrolet, however I will comment one last time about the Chevrolet big block engine.

Most of my "racing" friends are into Chevrolet engine's, and about 95% of them could care less about the big block Chevrolet engine's. Quite honestly out of all of the Chevrolet cars I have raced, no big block Chevrolet powered cars were even in the top 20. A 427 or 460 powered Cobra fears a 427 or 454 powered Corvette about as much as a Ford Lightning fears racing a SS454 Chevrolet pickup.

[steelcomp]

Sizzler,
You just drove a stake through your own heart with that article. (Did you really read the whole thing?) It absolutely verifies the quote you're trying to use against me. You obviously don't know a lot about the race world, or the politics involved. I worked as a senior cyl. head specialist, machinist, and engine technician for Alan Johnson (Johnson Racing, Alan Johnson Cyl Heads, NHRA Top Fuel World Champ 96, 97, 98, Top Alcohol World Champ 90,91,92,93) from 1992 'till 1996, right before Blaine was killed. He was a friend, and I miss him. We did the heads for Pat Austin, and mfdg'd heads for WAR (Walt Austin Racing) to sell to the TA crowd. I have worked with John Rodeck personally as we used his Harley when we developed a billet head for the Harley. I did all the r&d (that stands for research and development) for that project. I worked for Dart in Detroit along side Rich Maskin (Numerous NHRA Pro Stock championships and records, and cyl. head mfgr) as a cyl head technician, and machinist. I've done Pro Stock r&d when at that time we were doing engines for Mark Powuk. Like him or not, there's not a man out there that knows how to get power out of an engine like Maskin. I was in the trenches. I worked on the stuff. I fixed it when it blew up. I welded heads back together and re machined, them, re-ported them, and re assembled them. I worked in the pits. I did test and tune in Pro Stock. I was hired by John Raines in Santa Paula to build his 300 mph (290+) Firebird. I worked directly with Ken Duttweiler and developed a 1000+hp BuicV6 for that car as well as built the entire car. I have a walk in invitation, any time at any race with many of the top names in NHRA. I have seen it and been there and can tell you, from my experience, there, in the world of hard core racing, with the best, that there isn't a better factory design out there for a high HP, big cubic inch, unlimited type race engine. The 4.9 bore center, as I stated before, is something that other mfg'r WISH they had, and have spent a LOT of money duplicating it in classes where it is allowed. You don't just "stretch" a head to another bore center. You have to completely re design the casting and start from scratch. I'm not trying to brag,,, I'm trying to tell you something you have seemingly little knowledge of, from my experience, not magazine articles. I've built just about every configuration of american V8 and then some.

The Ford racer hasn't had the backing that the GM guys have had, and it's really sad to hear that NHRA has just screwed the Ford guys again. There's a tremendous GM bias there, and it's PURELY political. The truth is, if they allowed (which they used to...the Jordan Bros. Racing team out of Ventura, CA used to run a Ford Hemi in TAFC) there wouldn't be a GM product out there. They all have a 4.84" bore ctr and it's been their limiting factor. So NHRA just sucked GM's you know what...again. Knowing the Austins, that motor was going to be a killer, which has always been the potential of a 385 motor.

NHRA has a lot more classes than PRO anything. Like the article says, there is more anad more interest in the BBF than ever before. People are slow to change...even when they know what's better. Human nature resists change, and so much racing has been dominated by BBChev motors for so long, but that's changing. And the BBC hasn't dominated because it's better. The FE was the premier race motor before the 385, and, sorry, it just couldn't keep up. Thanks to guys like KC, it seems to be making a come back, but still in a very specialized arena. Look at IHRA and see who's winning. Look in the record books and see names like Ronnie Sox and Ricky Smith, who were allowed to take advantage of the Ford's potential. I'm gonna dig up so much 385 racing history you're going to choke on it.

Because the after market never got a chance to go with the 385 since Ford dropped their racing program in 1970, you won't ever hear much about it. Parts have been slow in the making, but they're available now. Ford never played the political game, either, so (obviously with the Austins) the breaks were never there. Look at how Ford is treated in NASCASR. Every year, without fail, Ford comes out with a killer combination, and the officials deny it, or change the rules, and the GM guys just keep on smiling.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think if you knew more about the facts, you might change your opinion. If you STILL think the 385 is a worthless motor, that's your business, but it's PURELY emotional, and based on nothing but...what's the word?...oh yeah...prejudice.
But thanks for bringing the the article to my attention. I need to make some calls and find out what's going on.

BTW...put more than 5 lbs boost on a 4.6 (like what's in the Lightning), and you'll spit the rods out the pan. You're right JP.

[Excaliber]

"Toyota, Honda, and the rest will be in Nascar soon(already in the truck series). Ford's days are numbered."

No doubt NASCAR needs to and will go "international". But to say "Fords days are numbered"? Such a statement is simply ridiculous.
1. NASCAR would never allow it.
2. Ford is quite capable of competing on an international level with all comers.

3. Chevys suck!

[steelcomp]

Ex CXaliber...you're exactly right. Every engine builder out ther wishes they had a 4.9" (5" even better) bore ctr. The 385 Ford is the only one which does, and this gives it a BIG advantage. The FE has been plagued by it's 4.63 bore center untill recent block developments have allowed bigger bores, but it's still limited by that. There are aftermarket 4.9 and 5.0 bore ctr blocks out there for the GM guys, but I don't think they're NHRA legal (yet) and they're very expensive. If they were allowed to run the Ford, everyone else would be FORCED to change over just by virtue of the performance advantage. That means EVERY 4.84" GM part you have that is based on bore ctr, which is the majority of the expensive parts, (block, crank, heads, cams, oil pans, intakes) is suddenly obsolete. Think about what that means, with an industry that is DOMINATED and financially supported by 4.84 bore ctr GM engines. So because the Ford engineers, in 1967 (the beginning of the design of the 385) saw a weakness in the BBC, and designed their engine to not have that limitation, they're screwed. I guarantee if Ford had not dropped out of racing in 1970, there wouldn't be a BBChevy that was competetive.

[steelcomp]

You go, Sllick!!

[Power Surge]

I just read this entire thread and my brain hurts. But I have enjoyed some of it and learned a bit about FEs.

I know zilch about FEs, but 385 series motors used to be my specialty, until I got into mod motors, so I'd like to comment on the "truck motor" issue as it's bothering me...

Saying a 460 is a "truck motor" couldn't be furthur from the truth. The first 385 series came out in 69, as the 429 Thunderjet passenger car motor, used in cars like T-birds and LTDs and such. In 70, it got a performance shot in the arm in the form of the CJ and SCJ, to replace the FE motors. The 460 came out soon after that (71 if I recall), in passenger cars. And I mean BIG ones. Like 74 T-birds that weighed close to 6k lbs. Ford stopped using the 429/460 towards the late 70s in favor of the 351/400 M motors. No trucks that I can recall came from the factory with a 385 series motor at that time, except you could order one in a Ranchero GT, which of course was a car anyway. Trucks still used FE motors into the late 70s, with the 360. In the 80s, the 351/400M got truck duty until about 86 or so when the 460 was brought back to life for the F350, and the 429 was brought back for the BIG trucks, like the F600s. The 370 also emerged, being widely used on school buses. There was also a 498 inch 385 series made for the BIG trucks, but it really doesn't share much inside with the other motors.

So to say the 460 is a "truck motor" when it didn't see it's first truck application for almost 20 years after it came out, just doesn't make sense.

You may now continue with your normally scheduled program .

[steelcomp]

Bandit...that's probably my fault...I was comparing the 385 to the FE, but you really can't talk about the development of the 385 without talking about the BBChev. Others took it from there. I really didn't want to debate Ford/Chev since (I hope) we're all Ford guys her. Heck, I have a BBChev in my Drag Boat. It's what it came with, but if I was to build a "real" motor for it, it would definately be a 385 Ford.

[ToyCollector]

Bandit 1,

In the last week I have personally seen two shops who BUILD and develop motors for the Cup boys. Dodge and Chevy are fighting the game neck and neck. I will give you that the Chevy guys have more money chasing it, but I love how the Ford and Dodge guys make it happen and innovate.

[steelcomp]

I'm pretty sure that the 385 started in 68, as a 429, went to 73 as a 429
I believe the first 460 was the 69 Lincoln Continental, and they ran 460's 'till 97, or later. I also believe that the 460 was available in F250's as early as 72.

[Russ Dickey]

Originally posted by steelcomp


The Ford racer hasn't had the backing that the GM guys have had, and it's really sad to hear that NHRA has just screwed the Ford guys again. There's a tremendous GM bias there, and it's PURELY political. . [/b]

Since this thread has been completely highjacked, I figured I might-as-well steer it a little more off course. I think that Ford doesn't give a rat's a$$ about the NHRA, nor do most of us Ford fans. Why? Because there is an ENTIRE sanctioning body dedicated to ONLY Ford products: the NMRA. Why would Ford spend a dime doing anything in the train-wreck that is the NHRA, when their target market is running all-Ford products in an all-Ford series???

Russ

[Russ Dickey]

Originally posted by ToyCollector


Bandit 1,

In the last week I have personally seen two shops who BUILD and develop motors for the Cup boys. Dodge and Chevy are fighting the game neck and neck. I will give you that the Chevy guys have more money chasing it, but I love how the Ford and Dodge guys make it happen and innovate.

All of this is irrelevant in NASCAR anymore. The manufacturer battle amounts to a hill-of-beans to the dip$hit's who run NASCAR. All they care about is pushing the popularity of the driver's, and they do that by ensuring parity within the cars. No matter what Ford does, the moment they go faster than the Chevy's or Dodge's, they'll slap an aero-restriction on the Taurus', or give the Monte's and Dodge's an aero-concession. NASCAR is so far from it's "stock-car" racing roots right now, it makes me sick. But, they did recently bring in Magic Johnson as a NASCAR advisor. Maybe HE can get things all straightened out....

[steelcomp]

You're right, Russ, this thread was steered way off course, but I've been trying to keep a comparison to the FE through all this. Guess I got distracted.
Sorry, time to stop.

[misfit41]

I would just like to remind everyone that its time for recess,,as soon as we finish our milk,,and we slap the erasers together,,we can talk about this some more,,,:} T

[BANDIT 1]

I think this thread has been one of the best threads I have ever read. I think that there has been more information about the FE and 385 series engine's than any other thread I have read. Mr. Craft was kind enough to tell us about the "modern" FE engine's development and even if one doesn't buy an FE engine from his company, the FE buyer has alot more information to ask a potential engine builder. Mr. Steelcomp and others have also informed us of information about the FE and 385 series engine's.

[ToyCollector]

OK, I'm listening...my chalk has been taken away.

[misfit41]

I've been busy scanning trader online for one of those 427 station wagons,,WOW,talk about information we can all use,,,haha
have a great night eberyone,,Tim

[Keithc8]

As with any engine program or racing program you pretty much come down to cubic dollars. The NHRA Pro Stock engines pretty much all look alike and use the same parts. The Dodge is using the Hemi style head with modern technology. All of the blocks are 5.00 bore center to offer larger valves in the heads and unshroud the intake valves. They all use pretty much the same bore and stroke which is about 4.600 and 3.625 stroke. The blocks heights are like a small block with most of them in the 9.200 range. The Chevy and Ford Pro Stock heads look very much alike. The Mopar guys about 5 or 6 years ago wee running Chevy heads and block parts with Mopar part numbers. Ford has not been behind any drag racing program for years and when the top teams have a million dollar budget plus all the factory help and R&D that goes on you can see why the Ford has a problem competing.
Ford has taken a difference stabd on NASCAR and has given money and factory help but that seems to be falling of as late. A lot of Ford teams left for the Dodge stuff because of money and Dodge got to look at the Chevy stuff and Ford stuff then develope a new engine from scratch so they had the best stuff. NASCAR has allowed Ford a new head this year but they are still working on getting it lined out. Ford had to run the same head design for the last 8 years while Chevy and Dodge got new stuff. Now all of these engines look like each other. All three have symetrical intake ports and Chevy and Dodge did not original have these. Chevy developed the SB-2 just for NASCAR. New block, heads, intake, valvetrain, a whole new engine design. Now Toyota and who knows comes along and the Toyota engine I saw looked like a Dodge Cup V8 to me. I did not know these companys even had a V8. I think mit is called being money hungry on NADCAR's part just like NHRA started a class for them. about the bucks.
None of the engines designed back in the 60's could not take what we do with them these days with out all of the after market parts. Most of the engines we build anymore do not have one used part in them, pretty amazing compared to the junk we had to use just 15 to 20 years ago.
To answer the gentlemans question on the 351C engine work. Yes we have worked on these engines as well and they have some good things about them and bad things as they all do. The Cleveland was one of the best engines of its time but was just out 4 years and was what Glidden won all of his Pro Stock titles with till they all went 500C.I big blocks. The Chevy guys and Mopar guys were running big blocks when Glidden was running the Cleveland. Back then you had a cubic inch to weight break. Glidden would run 337 or so cubic inch Clevelands against the Big Block Chevy and Mopars that were about 360 to 370C.I. NHRA kelp adding weight to the Cleveland till they had it at a disadvantage. They finally went to they 500C.I rule.
The 351C engines had thin cylinders and a bad oiling system same as the 385 series engines. Ford for some reason made the main oil galley also the passenger lifter galley. So you had lifters choppping up and down in your main oil galley that feed the rods and mains. This was no big deal in regular street use but start racing these engines and you would loose oil pressure up high and have bearing problems. It is even worse when you install solid roller liftser. The way to help this is to install lifter bore busching in the passenger side oil galley. I have had guys break a push rod and chunk a lifter out of the passenger side and loose oil pressure. You can make some real good power with these engines because of the heads but they have their quirks that need fixed as well. I think we are coving most all of the engines on the thread. Good luck. Keith

[BMK]

Bandit 1

I agree this "Thread" has had some interesting and lively discussion/views put forward.

It has been great reading it. The great debate will continue..



Cheers

Bernie

[Excaliber]

I don't think the thread got "hi jacked" at all really. The information, including Chev vs Ford and Toyota NASCAR is still relevant to the over all history and the future of the engines in question. Conversations typically do wander off track and that often brings up some interesting points that add to it all.

,,,,so how about the 1000(?) cubic inch WW2 army tank "FE" OHC Hemi V8? Now THERE was a Ford BIG BLOCK.