Shelby Aluminum

[steelcomp]

Sizzler,
I don't know where the quote came from, but I don't agree. I know there were some cases of block failure with SBChevs, and I don't think anyone here is trying to put down an engine design or trying to make this something personal, but I don't think the splayed bolts were designed to keep the block together. BUT, I could be wrong. There were four bolt SBC's long before there were splayed outers. The splayed outer bolt is used in other engines where there was never a "splitting" problem. It's just a better method.

The evidence of cap walk indicates that there is movement of the cap. Movement of the cap indicates that the bolts are stretching. Even at the micro amount they are stretching, they are stretching. When a bolt stretches, and returns, it will work harden and eventually break. The cap is also doing the same thing. If it is moving, it is "deflecting" ie: bending. It's like bending a piece of wire. It's why rod bolts fail. The first step is to install studs, which have a much higher clamping force, and resist stretching more that bolts. The next step was to install "more bolts". I've seen a lot of failed engines with broken bolts, blocks, caps, etc, and it's really hard to tell just exactly what failed first when you get a pile of junk. Did the bolts fail, to cause the block to crack or the cap to break? Did the cap break, causing the bolts to fail? I also know that for higher hp blown applications, cast caps are no longr strong enough. My observations and experiences have always led me to believe that the extra bolts were to add strength to the bottom end, not make up for a weak block. The splayed bolts really act more in the direction of the load than do the verticle bolts, but the concept of capturing the cap in two directions is what I believe the engineers were trying to accomplish in an attempt to minimize cap movement by increasing rigidity. The splayed bolt also helps move the secondary bolt hole further away from the primary main bolt, allowing for a more integral main web, and helps distribute the load more through the pan rail and side of the block, instead of just the main web itself. Rigidity is the key in every aspect of designing an engine, especially where the dynamic loads are so great and the more directions in which you can secure something like a main cap, the more rigid it will be.

The girdles on two bolt Ford bottom ends IMO are more a bandaid. The one on the FE does the same thing as the cross bolting. It helps transfer main cap movement to another rigid part of the block.They are an inexpensive way to add "some" rigidity to a two bolt bottom. There just isn't an inexpensive option for Fords when it comes to four bolt mains, or beefier parts. Roush offers (used to) a main support kit that is a bar that goes across the top of a cap, after machining, but that was another bandaid. I think more benefit came from switching to studs with the kit, than the bar itself. Tying the assembly together with a girdle helps distribute the load, much like a stud girdle on a cyl head, but you don't have the bending load on a bottom end like with rocker studs, so it's a weak comparison. They seem to have some benefit on bottom ends, but I wonder what the comparison would be without them. I can see a bigger benefit on the SB Ford, where their hp levels are far exceeding anything the blocks were designed to handle, but on the BBF I thnk they're a waste of time. KC might have some more "practical" input here, and I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say. I don't see in any way how the girdles can keep a block from "splitting". I see unitizing the main cap assembly, but again, more to minimize individual cap movement which can lead to bolt/stud failure.

[steelcomp]

Mr Bruce,
Can you be more specific about the time period? We have already covered the lack of development of the 385 series engine, and the fact that there are way more, by sheer volume, BBC's in racing than Fords simply due to a lack of development nad support. The aftermarket is what drives the popularity of the BBC, and the politics of the money behind the industry is greatly in GM's favor. And who cares if you can still get an all aluminum BBC from GM? What has that got to do with how good an engine design it is? In design, the 385 is superior to the BBC. That's not something to take personal, and the history of the BBC has nothing to do with that. Bring up some design issues about the BBC that you think make it a superior engine. I'd take an FE over a BBC, especially what I've learned in the past week or so, and I'm a much bigger supporter of the 385. I'll build a road course 385 that'll stomp the dog s*#t out of any BBC. It's not a personal, emotional thing, it's engineering, and cast iron and aluminum, and parts that go up and down and back and forth. It's just inanimate pieces of metal, and facts are facts. Dimensions are dimensions. Ratios are ratios. etc.

We were talking about bottom end designs and the pro's and con's of cross bolting vs. four bolt/splayed bolt designs. I don't think we need to get into Ford vs. Chevy debate here. There IS no debate, as far as that goes. You just don't bring a knife to a gun fight!! Ya know!!

[misfit41]

is it just me ,or has thos whole thing gone to ,he** ?

[mr bruce]

Steel, the fans keep bringing up the history and how great the FE WAS. That was 35 years ago, time marches on. As for FoMoCo stealing the BBC design and improving on it, maybe so, but the General has also been redesigning stuff. Get yourself one of the GM Performance parts catalogs.It's probably double the size of the Ford counterpart. GM is VERY progressive in the design and supply of their performance parts. All the top quality hard parts are much easier to source for the GM motors. Some of us should face the fact that it's a Chevy world out there. (PS, at present count ,I have 29 engines in my garage ,ranging from a 239 flathead(the ORIGINAL FE), to Windsors of various displacements, a coupla Clevelands, 3-5 FEs, and at least a dozen 385s, including a CobraJet, and a Super Cobra Jet. 1SBC,and 1BBC)I'd love for someone to build a 385 motor to kill the Chevys on a roadcourse, you WILL have your work cut out for you though.Also, the Can-Am from 66 to 73? or when the Porsches took over.

[steelcomp]

Typical!

[steelcomp]

BTW...The "fans" started this thread about the FE that is, and that's today. BBC's don't seem to be doing so well in their arena.

And you still haven't brought up one good point as to HOW the BBC is a better motor. And what does the fact that you horde motors have to do with anything?

AAAgghhhh!
I give up!

Beam me up, Scotty!

[mr bruce]

Subtly informing you that I am one of those Ford Fans.Advantage of the Big Block Chevy? Cool orange paint.

[BANDIT 1]

I guarantee you that there are more non-supercharged 600+ horsepower big block Ford engine's on the street today, than there are Chevrolet big blocks. Most of the high horsepower Chevrolet's I have seen are small blocks, most of the "Chevy stooges" like keeping their big blocks close to the factory condition. They want their Corvette's, Chevelle's, Camaro's and such to be exactly how it came from the factory, right down to the ugly _ss hub caps and wheels. Most 427 and 454 Chevrolet engine's I have seen are in the 390 - 485 horsepower range.

[MidOHasp]

Mr. Bandit, you hit the nail on the head.

I haven't been to many shows and seen a 69 Chevelle SS 396 that was on steroids.

The fact that the Chevy performance parts book is twice as thick as the Ford performance parts book is somewhat insignificant to me, and to many!

I am reminded of a thread I read here one day that caused some bad blood (seems like they all do at some point, so worrying about it becomes kind of a waste) regarding cam choices. That there were TONS more cams available for a 289 than a 351. So what? There is a crapload of cams available for a 351 and unless you are building a VERY VERY purpose built 351, there are plenty!

So back to Chevy's performance book. First, 80% of that book, at a minimum, is going to be devoted to the Chevy SB mouse motor. Why only 20% for the big blocks? Because the fact of the matter is, the only time the big blocks are really "done up" is when they are specialty items in a specialty motor. For instance, a 638cid Dart BBC or something like that.

Not to say that someone doesn't occasionaly molest a Camaro/Corvette/Chevelle and build the motor up, but those motors are truly few and far between.

That is what they are, and that is OK. I'm not saying it in even a slightly negative tone. Something in me loves seeing a completely original Chevelle or Camaro.

But we are really comparing apples to oranges here. You don't see someone saying "Yep, completely original Ford Wagon Queen Family Truckster with a NOS 460." Call me crazy, but I'm glad! So there are the yahoos that spend 25K on a NOS 427 and may not even care about the HP/TQ numbers. So what, they say! Crazy in my mind, but I'm still jealous of their engines. They are truly something SPECIAL.

True, though, that if you were to go around and dyno every motor at the next 400 car cruise in...I bet you the average HP of the BBC's is 100 less than the average HP of the SBC's. Maybe that number is off, but the point remains....Check out my original numbers matching 76 Monte Carlo with the original 2bbl. Rochester Carb! Who cares! Stroking the motor out ot a 383 and running some ridiculous hard parts to make 700HP makes that car COOLER. Doing the same thing to a 70 Chevelle...does not really make it any cooler.

What a motor is capable of? One argument. What usually happens with a motor? Another argument. Is a BBC capable of everything a BBF is capable of? Given the right hands, the right wallet, and the right everything else, sure...most likely! But that kind of misses the point, I think. Or maybe it doesnt...it's just a DIFFERENT point! Which is O-KAY!!!

BTW, Tim, I don't think this thread has gone to hell at all. I think you might need to smile more!!! I disagree that you'd be the more fun date because as soon as your date wanted to talk about anything and delve into the deepest depths of a topic, you'd think the date was going poorly!! This thread is great, and the information contained within is wonderful!

It is funny, however, how it has morphed. It all started with some dyno numbers on an aluminum FE. Now look what we are talking about. Perhaps we should change the name and let this thing go on the course ordained by Steelcomp, Bandit, et al.

I'm enjoying it.

[steelcomp]

Honest, JP...I keep trying to make a connection to the FE. Really, honest!! I do!!!

That was a pretty big leap to take against Tim...he's just as frustrated by the usless (in regards to this topic) inputs that really seem to have no point except trivial banter by guys like Mr. Bruce as I am...no offense Mr Bruce. In a way it's all relative, but in a way, "everything" is relative. There are other forums to take up those comparisons.

But it is fun, isn't it!

BTW...one of the most fun times I have ever had was at the '98 Run 'n Gun on the Mid Ohio Road Course. Man, that was like being in a part of road racing history in person!!!

[RACER X #99]

Mr Bruce,
I wonder why we don't see these killer Ford BB's on the race track? Lots of talk about superiority, but mention race track and they all go deaf.
I will admit that the BB's are the winners at the shows and the bench racing sessions but somehow all that HP advantage rarely shows up to perform.

BTW Bruce thanks for showing up at the tracks and showing support for those of us that do more than talk about HP.

Cranky

[BANDIT 1]

Mr. Racer X,

You keep singing the same old tune...

I don't recall anyone here saying that any big block is ruling the track, I am saying on the street the small block Cobra get's a good look at my tail lights. Please spare me the "street racing lecture". You choose to beat the Ferrari, Porshe, big block Cobra's, etc. on the track, the big block owners choose to beat the Ferrari, Porshe, small block Cobra's, etc. on the street, drag strip, and the show. What's your point?

[Excaliber]

Cranky,,,,, bring your tiny block to the drag strip and I'll be glad to run you!

Discounting an FE like it is an old and tired motor is a lot like saying:

The P-51 Mustang of WW2 was a great plane BUT, you know the F-16 is SO much better. Really??? Ya think???

[steelcomp]

Slick, you have a good point, but more to the point regarding "Cranky's" blabber, the FE is alive and seemingly well, today, in the here and now. That's coming from a converted skeptic. I have talked to a number of people about KC, and I have to say, his name is highly regarded in the small block Ford world. Sounds like he's the one to beat right now, so hearing what I heard, from those I heard it from, I respect and see the potential in KC's ability to put some seriouis hp no's. down. I am willing to say, albeit probably pretty damn expensive, that the FE has been brought into the rhealm of modern performance, and dosen't need to be compared with yesteryear's FE. It seems to be able to speak for itself, and is holding it's own quite well.

Cranky, I'll listen to any tying you want to say about the BBF on the race track. You say you "do more than talk about horsepower"?
I'd like to hear that. So, tell us. What records are you setting? What championships are you wining with all your knowledge that can render the BBF nothing more than talk?
Go ahead.

Were listening.

[PatBuckley]

I have to admit, at first I wasn't sure, but I think I like you Steelcomp!

[steelcomp]

Yeah, well at the beginning of this whole thing, I wasn't liking me much either.

Thanks Pat.

[Turk]

Pat,
That sounded sooo gay!

TURK

[Jamo]

Not that there'as anything wrong with that.

[cobrashoch]

Steelcomp - Just read this whole damed thread and some mostly agreeing comments.(but not all)
- The 460 Ford was a Mercury/Lincolin project that came about in a skunkworks project team at Mercury with Ford input. They developed this engine around late 65 to early 66. The first 460's were in Lincolins in 1967. The 429's came later in Thunderbirds in 68. This team later developed the BOSS smallblock head in 1967 for the later Boss 302's. The 460 was developed and designed for 500 cubic inch motors, as at that time it was thought that was the way things were going. It for sure NEVER was designed to be a debugged Chevy engine. Remember at that time the Chevy rat did not have a track record or even a reliable street performance record. Ford did look at both the Chevy big blocks and the Chrysler wedge and Hemi designs for sure.
- A Chrysler 426 street hemi engine with iron heads weighed in at about 65 lbs less that a 1966 iron head Chevy 396, with the 385 block coming in about 30 lbs more than the 396 and later 454. All of this is dependent on castings of course. You are correct that the extra weight in a 385 block resulted in a stronger block overall.
- Your correct that a spayed main cap is a better cap than a crossbolt main, for cap walk. But not for the reasons you stated. It's more about dispersing harmonics into a greater mass of the block. With a crossbolt the harmonics are directed to a thinner sidewall rather than into a main webbing. A crossbolt does give you more vertical sheer though. Thats also why main girtles are not very good as they direct harmonics to the pan rail. Girdles are however better than nothing though.
- On a previous thread I commented that All FE's were not big blocks, rather they are a medium sized block. I concluded that what determines the class size of a engine was bore centerline spacing and deck heights. You are correct IMHO that most of these debates are fueled emotional responces based on what we think we know. As I get older that's fine with me, and I've learned the wisom of sticking my ear into what the other fella is saying, but more important, the whys.
- You've made a few statements about 385's that carry over to racing and 385's advantages. Too some I concure, but to many I don't suscribe to. And I have been one of the most vocal, and ardent 385 proponents on this board for years. I ask you a question. Do you think you have changed anyones minds about engine choices? By your own admission you have revised your own opinion about FE's. It's been my experience that most of these guys don't really care what a 385 guy has to say. It's their loss in my mind.
- The promise of the overhead cam 427 engine was the reason 385's were not ever put in Cobra's. Same thing for the tunnel port FE heads. This subject may make for a good future thread and debate I'd bet.

- I'm really a Chrysler Hemi sort of guy with my background around those toys.
Welcome to the board, A better or harder group is hard to find.

Fuel injection is nice, But I would rather be BLOWN !

cobrashock

[Excaliber]

Well this whole thing got me to digging out my old Chiltons/Motors manuals and looking up a few things. Interesting the 460 and 429 share the same bore, different stroke. I would have guessed the 429 came first, logic being manufacturers start small and grow big.

One thing that left me baffled. The 429 head bolt torque is 130 to 140 pounds. But the BOSS 429 is only 90-95 pounds. I would have swore the BOSS would have at least as high a torque as the standard 429. Whats up with that?