Shelby Aluminum

[cobrashoch]

Ernie - The BOSS had aluminum o-ringed heads at first. Iron heads were the standard fair on all other 385 engines.
cobrashock

[RICK LAKE]

Mr. Bruce While I am not a cranky fan. There are alot of 351 windsor out there racing with bores and strokes in the 396-408 numbers. The 1 note is that it is cheaper to build and blow up a windsor than an FE motor. For the HP differents and wieght differents, ( THIS IS WITH IRON BLOCKS) If I was to full time ran I would go with a retired nascar 358 ford motor. Drop the compression and change the cam and you have a hell of a good motor. Dry sump and all. steel comp I guess we have grown on you Maybe you could get together with KC and make a new head for the FE that would flow better, wet or dry for the FE motor. Be careful Pat wants a group HUG Rick Lake

[RACER X #99]

To all Big Block blowhards, ( too many to list seperately),
Show me where these BB Fords are kicking Butt. I know there are a few FE Fords winning in NHRA Stock classes but almost nobody is running a Ford Big or small block in modified NHRA drag racing.

Sure we have lots of A**holes burning up their tires on the street but most of them are little guys and they don't count for anything anyway.( Randy Newman "short people go no reason to live")

Oh by the way what records have I set? Well probably number 1 in pissing off Street racers and Car show weenies.

Am I winning? No and probably never will but I am out there on the track having fun and working my little engine for all it's worth.

BTW I am a die hard Ford guy but I am also realistic and Ford has a long way to go the compete with the General.

I also admire Kieth Craft racing and what he is doing to wake up those enemic FE's

You BB guys sure are funny.

Cranky

[BANDIT 1]

I have never tried to change anyone's mind that wanted a 427 FE engine in their Cobra, what I disagree with is the same "lame" statements that the 427/428 engine is better (than a 385 series engine) because of "lame" reasons like the car just "can't turn because it's 100 lbs. heavier", it "doesn't look right in a Cobra" (other than the custom Shelby Cobra with a 351, I have never seen a "factory" 302, 351, 390, 406, 358 Nascar engine, small block/big block Chevrolet, 4.6/5.4 modular engine, Viper engine, Buick GN engine, or 392/396/408 Ford small block "stroker" engine that came in a original 427 S/C Cobra).

As far as the "extra 100 lbs.", I guarntee that I could shave a extra 100 lbs. off the front of ANY Cobra to get the weight down. I also would not call a 514c.i. 600+ horsepower engine out of the "Ford Racing" catalog a passenger car/truck engine.

Mr. Cranky,

I have NEVER lost a race on the street, period.

[Great Asp]

Can anybody on this thread quote "estimated" weights for the following motors, figuring aluminum heads for all

460 cast iron block
460 aluminum block
FE cast iron block
FE aluminum block
351W cast iron block
351W aluminum block

I was interested to see where the weight was in a comparison.

Eric

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by steelcomp


Sizzler,
I don't know where the quote came from, but I don't agree. I know there were some cases of block failure with SBChevs, and I don't think anyone here is trying to put down an engine design or trying to make this something personal, but I don't think the splayed bolts were designed to keep the block together. BUT, I could be wrong. There were four bolt SBC's long before there were splayed outers. The splayed outer bolt is used in other engines where there was never a "splitting" problem. It's just a better method.

The quote came from World Products, who casts aluminum GM blocks. If anyone should know what they're talking about, I would think it was them.

The FE is a state of mind and I think I'm probably crazy

[BANDIT 1]

SUPERFORMANCE WEBSIGHT:

DIMENSIONS and CAPACITIES:
Wheelbase: 90"
Length: 152"
Height (Top of screen): 48"
Width (Overall): 69"
Track Front: 54"
Track Rear: 57"
Fuel Tank: 17 gal.
Front Wheels: 15" x 8J
Rear Wheels: 15" x 10J
Tires: Goodyear Eagle 1 or GT 11
Front 255/60 R15
Rear 275/60 R15
Differential Ratio: 3.7
Empty Weight: 1,840 lbs.
351 Motor 2,485 lbs.
427 Motor 2,590 lbs.
460 Motor 2,660 lbs.



FROM A PREVIOUS THREAD (STOCK WEIGHT):

5.0 450
289/302 460
3.02BOSS 500
351W 510-525
351C 550
FE 650-670
429BOSS 635-680
427SOHC 680
429-460 720



ERA WEBSIGHT:

FoMoCo Official
Engine Specifications
Approximate
Weight* (lbs)

'65 289 465
'71 302 HO 480
'71 351C (2V) 525
'69 351W (4V) 515
'69 S 390 600
427 (Galaxy) 590
427 SOHC 680 (iron heads)
630 (aluminum intake)
'68 "R" 428-CJ 610 (iron intake)
570 (aluminum intake)
'71 429SCJ 590

"All-aluminum 427 (Shelby) to be as low as 460 lbs, 20 less than a 289 iron small block. Aluminum heads, water pump and intake on an iron block results in about 520 lbs."



FORD RACING CATALOG:

460 Cast Iron Block 290 lbs.

460 Aluminum Block 179 lbs.



SHELBY WEBSIGHT:

Shelby 427 Aluminum Block Technical Features:
Block material A356, T6 aluminum
Block is CNC machined
Deck height 10.150-inch
Deck thickness 0.750-inch
Cylinder bore range 4.250-inch, std., to special order 4.440-inch
Maximum stroke 4.500-inch
Displacements up to an easy 525 cubic inches
Cylinder sleeve Centrifugally cast ductile iron
Cylinder wall Siamese with dry liners
Main bearing cap Billet Steel
Main bearing cap bolt configuration studs; 4 cross bolts on 2-3-4 mains
Oil sump Accomodates wet or dry sump oiling systems
Head stud diameter 0.500-inch
Bare block weight 125 pounds, approximately
Horsepower range 1500 plus

[Great Asp]

I was wondering if the aluminum FE cuts enough weight from the cast iron block, to make the car "handle" like a SB car.

I recently helped a friend here in St. Louis pick up his cast iron block FE SPF in Ohio, and got a chance to drive the car also.

I am not a track guy, but there seemed to be a differance in the front (IMO), with the front "pushing" into the curves. Poor discription, but that is what I felt.

I like BB torque, and FE looks, and sounds like KC can build a monster that will hold up, but will the car drive like my SB does????

Eric

PS I first will have to sell my car.....pooh!

[RICK LAKE]

Great ASP Yes an FE all Alum handle just like a small block without the whine. an I only have 360 hp and 468 tork under 5500 rpm. Rick Lake

[BANDIT 1]

If you look at the 112 lb difference in the aluminum 460 block than that would bring a Superformance Cobra (according to their websight weight chart) down to 2,548 lbs.

The aluminum block would take the "previous thread (stock)" 460 c.i. engine weight of 720 lbs. down to 608 lbs and that's not even with aluminum heads.

[steelcomp]

Ron,
Thanks for your input.
Two things.
One
I wasn't there when the 385 project was started, and I didn't hear what the engineers and designers based their ideas on or why, so I really don't know anything historically for a fact. I've heard a lot of what you said before, and other versions, by so called "experts". I like trying to keep the relation between the different engine designs the issue, not really the history. Unless you or I were there (which you may have been...I don't know) the history point is moot, but I love the knowledge. Thanks for that.
Two.
I wouldn't even think of trying to change someone's mind as to which engine they prefer. Just trying to throw some usefull info out there in case someone isn't set on an FE, or for those who are interested in broadening their knowledge. For those that are die hard FEer's, I think it's great. Lets face it...the only reason we're even having this conversation is due to our passions for this subject. Passion is what drives this industry. My changing of the mind was more directed at KC than the FE itself. There are places that I might consider a hard running FE where it might be cosmetically desireable, but it wouldn't be my first choice of a motor. IMO, all bets are off when you want to talk authenticity regarding these replica Cobras. They're replicas, not authentic, in the "practical" sense, (not in the emotional sense. Emotionally, each car is to it's owner whatever he wants it to be, and rightfully so.) Even Shelby's 4000's are replicas. Originals are originals. There were only so many, and there will never be any more.
Thanks Ron. You and I could have some interesting debates. Glad to hear from you.


Regarding World Products
I worked for DART when they were World Products, and you really have to take what is written in catalogues and literature with a BIG grain of salt. They are written by office personnel who rarely have to verify a lot of what's said when it comes to "whys" and "hows". Their no. one objective is to sell the product. If it sounds "technical" or "cool" it's good enough.
Magazines are the same way. I've picked apart SO many technical articles that were so blatently wrong. I've written letters and gotten little or no response. Articles are written by staff writers who one month are telling you how to degree your cam for HotRod, and the next month, telling you how to best roll over your IRA for Money Mag.
Sell Sell Sell

Cranky, you're just a jack ass of phenominal preportions!!! That's about all I have to say to you. You add nothing to any of this conversation worth the time you took to write it except a negative attitude.
(Sorry JAMO...probably get a time out for that one)

[PatBuckley]

Priceless.

[Turk]

Pat I am surprised.
You are agreeing with Steelcomp?
I thought you LIKED FE modors....

TURK

[MidOHasp]

It sounds like he is agreeing that Cranky is a jackass. Could this be the common thread to unite owners of all motors from tiny blocks to huge blocks, iron or aluminum, Ford vs. Chevy, Gas vs. Diesel, Fuel Cell?!!?!?!?

[xlr8or]

JP don't hold your breath.

Steelcomp,
Are you familiar with the Jon Kaase design on the newer SCJ heads? Are there any others out there that compare?

Scott

[Daniel Jones]

> I am not a track guy, but there seemed to be a differance in the front (IMO),
> with the front "pushing" into the curves. Poor discription, but that is what
> I felt.

Besides the engine weight, the suspension set-up (alignment, spring and sway
bar rates, shock settings, tire contact patch, rubber composition, etc.) play
greatly into that perception. I can set up my Pantera which only has 40% of
it's weight on the nose to understeer and I've taken my nose heavy Mustang
from heavy understeer to where it now is a bit tail-happy. Even the perception
of weight can be influenced by the amount of caster (lifts the weight as you
turn the wheel).

> I was wondering if the aluminum FE cuts enough weight from the cast iron
> block, to make the car "handle" like a SB car.

Yes. With the full aluminum treatment, you can get an FE down to weight
of your 418W. Didn't your first Superformamance Cobra have iron heads?
Could you tell any difference with the 50 lbs lighter 418W? Another data
point on the weight. An aluminum 351C (Fontana block, C302B high ports,
Roush intake, aluminum flywheel, mini-starter, etc.) came in at 404 lbs.

Dan Jones

[PatBuckley]

Turk -

Like them - hell I LOVE them. Sound great, look good. You will never hear me say that I would want one in a road race car though.

MidOHasp - I am just one among many!

[Jamo]

Now now Steelcomp...

Cranky was simply suggesting that FE and other big block Ford owners are simply of a different mindset than he is, and that while he appreciates their blue oval pedigree he simply prefers the simplicity of engine bay fitment and overall dynamics of the smaller blocked engines for his chosen venue of enjoyment...that being open track days at the multitude of tracks found within driving distance of his beloved New Jersey. That being said, he has an utter disdain for those folks who prefer to socialize and share their love for these fine articles of Americana at car shows, or for those folks who do receive no small degree of enjoyment from an occasional spinning of ones tires on public roads. There are those, of course, who wholeheartedly disagree with the rather limited view of life as we know it as propounded by this individual and his fellow travelers, although some within their ranks have been known to partake of the alternative forms of enjoyment so eloquently argued against by the Cranky One. Some view his proclamations as prima facie evidence of their perception that he bears a remarkable resemblece to a rectal orifice, but many who have had occasion to have social (or other forms of) intercourse with him know this to be a rebutable presumption given his behind the scenes giggling when he has achieved a nice soup from stirring the inevitable pot which one finds so full of ingredients at this meeting place of varied minds. A rascal of dizzying complexities, our dear subject can be counted on to take a firm stance in the middle of a field of honor, though he sometimes does find himself standing forth quite alone with no challengers to face him since the field has been well plowed over so many times that the topsoil has quite simply blown away. I harkin you back to the old days (a few pages back) where you may have found yourself swinging at similar windmills only to have settled in to a less rabid form of exchanging views with the common folk herein. Please be aware and know, that our dear subject is still swinging away and will not rest until he has stilled the wind that causes those bladed devils to continue turning in his mind. I bid you and he allow each other safe passage as you come across each other in the wilderness.

[Turk]

What does that mean?

You have to understand, there are those of us who don't speak English all that well in here, to have gotten the full grasp of what was said.
It sounded good however.

TURK
I will wait till the movie comes out so I can watch it under my tent with subtitles..

[Jamo]

Translated to Turkish-American...

"Steelcomp

Cranky is dung salesman who pulls cart with pony, but he like all horses. He no like showoff cart in bazaar...he use cart and pony only on goat paths. He big a$$hole sometimes, but he laugh and be silly most times. Do not take bath with him...he steal soap."