Shelby Aluminum

[Great Asp]

I did net onderstand 1 word dat Jamo said, but it looked purdy!

Dan,
Yes, this car handles better than SPF 992, but I thought that was due to the new Bilsteins, and H&R springs.

I always have to thank Dan for helping me aline my drive shaft, Thanks Dan!

500lbs of torque at the rear wheels sounds about right for my next build, what do you think Dan-o? I guess I will see you at the Fords Unlimited show with your Corvette????....lol I know it's a Pantera!...he-he

Eric

[Daniel Jones]

> 500lbs of torque at the rear wheels sounds about right for my next build,
> what do you think Dan-o?

Too much is just about right.

> I guess I will see you at the Fords Unlimited show with your Corvette????...
> .lol I know it's a Pantera!...

Unfortunately, no. I had a problem with the engine. Instead of fixing it,
I decided to bump up the Fontana aluminum engine build which had been on
hold due to all the overtime I was (and still am) working. My 4340 forged
crank has been on back-order going on 8 months now. Grrr. At least Kelly
got the first test castings back from the foundry a few weeks ago, so the
independent runner EFI intake will be ready when the engine is. In the
meantime, I've been tooling around in the TR8 convertible.

Dan Jones

[misfit41]

Midohasp,,
But I WAS smiling when I said the thread had gone to He**,,lol
actually,I sat out a couple days,,and wow,,the thread isnt dead,BUT,will some one explain to me how an fe is similar to a 239 head ? Please ?
haha,,life is good,,Tim

[xlr8or]

Jamo,
while your overly verbose response was accurate and entertaining it was far to eloquent for the mindset associated with a BB/SB debate.
Please refrain from officiating a pissing match unless you are going to wear a rubber suit and be willing to get wet. Especially since you confirmed his statement to be true.


Now where were we???? Oh yeah, Main Caps and block design..

On with the tech speak.

[BANDIT 1]

Back to the subject:

As the aluminum 429/460 block saves 112 lbs off of the weight, a few modifications to the engine and the car could easily save another 100 lbs up front.

The Superformance websight has the 460 Cobra weight at 2,660 lbs. This is probably with a 460 crate engine and no aluminum block. Subtract the 112 lbs. for the aluminum block and you have 2,548 lbs. Subtract another 100 lbs. with various aluminum products and front end modifications and you have 2,448 lbs. The Superformance websight has the 351 Cobra weight at 2,485 lbs.

It kind of throws out the door how the small block Cobra is so "light" and the big block 460 Cobra weigh's as much as a bus theory. Ask any "real" race car driver and he will tell you that on the small tracks it is not the weight of the engine (because the weight of a big block Cobra can be reduced...) that is making the car hard to go through the corners, it's the MONSTROUS torque.

[steelcomp]

Oh, you guys are BUSTIN me up!!!!
Jamo, I got your message...don't bother with the rubber suit. I'll behave. Even people like cranky have their place...unfortunately they're in constant need of being put there.

Bandit, there's something you're missing about the big block's weight that changes a lot about the car's handling, and that's the CG. It raises it considerably, and it moves the polar moment further outward. The other thing is, without the monstrous torque, you couldn't get a big block through the turns...power over steer, my friend!
I don't think there's a real arguement that if you want a better handling car, go with a good (blown) small block. If you save all the weight in the same manner (aluminum blk and hds, intake, etc.) on a small block, then you're not only getting a lighter pkg, you're reducing the polar moment, and the CG. Remember, I owned, and studied pretty thoroughly, the Arntz/Butler, which we all know has a 10" set back engine which gave it a slightly ( preferred) rear bias. I can't say I'm an expert as I really never got to drive many of the other cars, but of the ones I drove and got rides in, there was NO comparison. The weight distribution is not the best quality of a Coba, and putting a big block in it only makes matters worse. The BB Cobras never won a race because they were better handling cars. (The 289's did, though.) The BB Cobra was rediculously fast on the straights, and had good brakes. Thank god, because from the stories I've heard, it was hang on for dear life in the corners. I remember how guys would brag that their car could "smoke the tires at 60!!" as if this was commendable. I always had to chuckle a little, knowing that it only showed how poorly the Cobra chassis worked, and couldn't put the power to the ground. Again, I'm not trying to put the car down, I'm speaking strictly from an objective point of view, but it did leave a lot to be desired. Please no one take offense. I'm also sure that some of the newer cars have solved some of these problems, with newer susp. technology and frame design. I saw the torsional test specs on the Arntz chassis. That thing is STOUT!
Bottom line is, however, you're not going to get a BB car to handle as well as a SB car.

BTW...have you priced, or even tried to order an aluminum 385 block? (sincere question...I'm out of the know on that one)

Boy this is great. You's guys is 'da best!

[Anthony]

At last years Run n Gun,

My car weighed 2775 lbs, a fiberglass body, full stainless steel inner body panels (no fiberglass tub), all aluminum shelby 427, cast iron toploader, lakewood bell, full under the car exhaust, full tank of gas (16 gal).

Bill Beltcher, who won the street class overall, told me that his superformance weighed about 2675-2700 lbs, with an all aluminum windsor stroker (427 ci), tremec trans, I guess full tank of gas. A great car, and even better driver.

[steelcomp]

Another note on weight and it's effect...you really need to get the car on a set of scales if you want to know where the weight is. It's really the only way of knowing what effect the changes you are making will have.

Total wet weight of the last "Butler" we set up was 2783 with a Motorsport crate 351 W. (Iron blk, al. hds and int) and a tremec TKO.
RF was 641
LF was 615
RR was 768
LR was 758. That was a F/R ratio of 4554%.
You can do the RF/LR and LF/RRcrosses, as well. It had a Left/49.3%Right/50.6%

That car with me in it at 157#:
RF was 641
RR was 806
LF was 659
LR was 834
Notice how my weight brought even a little more rear bias to the table. (F/R 44.2/ 55.7) The L/R ratios basically swapped sides. That was one of the sweetest handling cars I had ever driven! It wasn't over sprung, it had the right sway bars on it, a very rigid platform, and BALANCE!

(numbers were rounded off...but you get the point)

Thanks.

[Great Asp]

Steel,

The number is M-6010-A96, and the price is around $4,500.00 for an all aluminum, 385 series, 460 block.

I found it in MM&FF, but found no listing online, not even at Fordracing.com

Eric

[BANDIT 1]

I understand the full details about the center gravity of the Big Block and all. My comments are aimed at the AVERAGE Cobra owner that might end up on a small road course a handfull of times. If I am going to be driving on the street 95% of the time, I am not going to be in some "measly" 550 horsepower small block Cobra that I purchased because the small block owners said "DON'T BUY A BIG BLOCK COBRA, THE 2 TIMES YOU TAKE IT ON A ROAD COURSE YOU WILL CRASH BIG TIME BECAUSE IT IS SO HEAVYYYYYYYYYYYY". I feel if some "sucker" falls for this he will find himself getting "smoked" by a 16 year old in a modified turbo Neon. I would prefer "smoking" the Ferrari's, Viper's, Corvette's, etc.. on the street with a 650+ horsepower big block Cobra, than having to pick on 454 Chevelle's, Honda Accord's, and Trans Am's with a 550 hosepower small block Cobra.

The point is simple, if I was going to race on a regular basis than I would recommend a Olthoff small block stroker Superformance Cobra. If I was going to spend 95% of the time on the street, I would go with the Cobra's that "rule" the street.......big block.

[steelcomp]

There's no substitute for CUBIC INCHES!!! Just move it back a little.

IF...(Big IF) I had a Cobra, (and I will again some day) the car will not be a compromise of any kind. If you're willing to spend $4500 on an aluminum block, why wouldn't you spend the money on a blown small block? 750 hp isn't that big a deal any more, and that's more hp than ANY car is going to put through street tires. So is 650, for that matter.

Measley 550 hp small block? Now there's a statement! There isn't a pair of Vipers on any given day that you can't beat with 550 hp in a 2700 LB car. (The rare Hennesey might give you a run for your money)
Corvette? Come on! You'd eat one ALIVE with a 550 hp small block (untill you got to a corner). Cobras aren't drag cars, they're road cars, or at least that's their heritage.
If you're talking top speed, well I think you're in the wrong car for that anyway. Especially on the street.

I understand your point, but your arguement dosent make sense.
I think you just like Big Blocks. Period. Heck, who dosent?
It's cool, it's cool.

Question? Of the 95% of the time you spend on the street, what kind of actual driving time does that represent? I'm interested in how much time you (guys) actually put on these cars. Once a weekend? For an hour? Once month for a few hrs? Please don't take this wrong...I'm being curious and sincere here. Don't nobody get bent!

Thanks

[Keithc8]

OK I have been away for a few days and am now going to try and get caught up. With all of the talk about Ford and Chevy engines and what is best lets just say they all ahve their place. I do not want to make anyone mad here but to just talk about the benefits of different engines and why they could not have built an engine with all of them in it.
The SBC and the BBC has better designed bearings with their small diameter and wider width. Most all race engines use a SBC or BBC rod journal size. They also had a smaller main bearing size as well as a wider cam bearing which carries the load better. The oiling system on the SBC and standard FE are similiar as well as the BBC and the 427 side oiler are similiar. The SBF has a good oiling system from the factory but the 351C and the 385 series have the worst of all. These engines had the main oil galley also being the lifter galley on the passenger side. The 385 engine had a good bore spacing and stroke combination with large bore. These engines had a 3" which is a litle large for performance engine especially with the stroke they cam with, this is also the same size as the 351W. The rod journal was way to big at 2.500 but did let us stroke the crank by using the BBC 2.200 journal. The blocks had good cylinders but a little weak in the bottem end unless you got a SCJ 4-bolt block. The FE has a better oiling system, smaller main and rod journal size but with a thin wall block and small bore spacing. Why Ford could not get it all right on one engine I do not know. Both the FE and 385 series had to heavy a crank but what are you going to do.
Now I do not know where most people are going to the drag races but they are covered up with BBC engines in most every dragster as well as most cars in Super Comp and Super Gas. When it comes down to it Chevy had a lot of good ideals in both the SBC and the BBC. Like using the same motor mounts and bell housings for easy swapping. Ford has different bell housing on about all of their engines. I see alot more SBF than 385 series engines at the dragstrips where I go. With the introduction of the 82 and later Mustang Ford gained a lot of new customers and SBF followers.
I also feel that the FE is a better indurance engine than the 385 series engine because of the oiling system but the 385 series engine is a better drag race engine because of its design, just have to fix a few things. The canted valve design of the 302B,351C, and the 385 series engines give them a better head. Ford had to go mess up the exhaust ports to make them fit in the Mustang by turning them down. Some of the best SBF heads are still based of the 302B-351C canted valve head. This is also true of the 385 series with the aftermarket heads as well.
So what you have to look at on any engine design is the strong points it has and the weak links that need to be fixed. On most Ford engines it is easy to over power the blocks where as the Chevy blocks will take more HP. None of the SBC heads can compete with the 302B-351C heads but when it comes to the Big Block debate the heads are real close with the Chevy having a better exhaust port. I do not like the short runner/long runner design on the BBC heads. All of the new heads have gone to a symetrical designed port, this true with NASCAR as well as Pro Stock.
So I do not believe their is one engine that is so much better than all of the rest. The amount of technology that has been developed on some of the engines is much better than others. This is one reason the SBC has always been hard to beat. The SBF has made up a lot of head way in the 10 years though.
Like I said before we build them all but you better know the weak points of each or you will have problems with all of them when you start turning them up and making more power.
As far as weight on the engines this has changed quite a bit as well depending on the parts used. We have some SBF engines in all aluminum that weigh as little as 325 pounds. The 385 series aluminum blocks are made by a couple of sources right now with a new company[Eliminator] now making a new 385 series cast iron blocks which we have three of and they are real nice. Ford racing has not made a A-460 racing block in about a year and they do not plan on making any more.
I guess there is all sorts of stuff to talk about hear but a lot of it does not matter to a lot of people as long as they get a nice piece that works. I guess it is kind of like a guy I know, if you ask him what time it is he tells you how to build a watch. Good luck Keith

[SnakeBitt]

Steel: That's actually an interesting question and have often wondered that myself. I would venture to guess that most of us are "weekend warriors" (with the exception of Hal Copple). I have a couple thousand miles on my car and it's a 2002. Of course, if I end up staying here in the south full time, that will probably go up. Only get a few months out of the year to drive the car in Chicago. I have a buddy in Ohio with 8000 miles on his '01 and also know a guy in Chicago with a '00 SPF that has less than 500 miles on it (what a waste!). He has a 408 stroker w/ 500hp and said it scares the $hit out of him (probably why he doesn't drive it). The car he sold to buy the SPF?.............Viper. He said his SPF would have eatin' his Viper for lunch and he "only" has 500hp.

[BANDIT 1]

Originally posted by steelcomp


750 hp isn't that big a deal any more, and that's more hp than ANY car is going to put through street tires. So is 650, for that matter.

Measley 550 hp small block? Now there's a statement! There isn't a pair of Vipers on any given day that you can't beat with 550 hp in a 2700 LB car. (The rare Hennesey might give you a run for your money)
Corvette? Come on! You'd eat one ALIVE with a 550 hp small block (untill you got to a corner). Cobras aren't drag cars, they're road cars, or at least that's their heritage.
If you're talking top speed, well I think you're in the wrong car for that anyway. Especially on the street.


Thanks

At a 70 mph starting speed on the hiway a 750 horsepower big block Cobra should have no problem with putting the power to the ground.

I won a race against my friends Suzuki GSXR1000 and my friend riding my 2001 modified Hayabusa (Suzuki GSX-1300R) from 70 mph - 150 mph. Haven't seen many small block Cobra's taking it to any busa's on the hiway.

I have also done over 170 mph (per the speedo) and can say that while other cars (like a ZO6 Vette or Viper) can do that also, they sure don't get there as fast as I did (try a couple of car lengths back...).

I drove the Cobra atleast 4 - 6 times a week and would go "hunting prey" every Friday and Saturday night.

Kieth Craft:

Most 460 (or bigger) engines in Cobra's are Ford crate engine's or custom Ford stroker's that if they have any "stock" part it is the block. With the modern Ford Racing block, Super Cobra Jet heads, Edelbrock heads (my 520 c.i. engine had Edelbrock heads), etc... on these engine's, doesn't the 460's have most of the issues you have listed corrected?

[Jamo]

I hear ya back, steelcomp, having run the Butler with a 351C in autocrossing and open track for several years and comparing it to the near SB weight of the aluminum engined Kirkham, I still have to give the nod to the Butler in the ultimate handling column. I imagine the engine weights (351C vs BB Shelby) are damn close, they both used independent rears, etc. so it really comes down to the placement of the motor in the chassis. If you're correct about the driver weight adding to the frt/rr ratio, then my 300+ lbs made me the perfect jockey for the analysis. The low end grunt and great suspension of the Kirkham makes up alot of the difference, noting that the 351C was a little light on the low end compared to the Windsors. However, the Butler was closer to the neutral handling goal most strive for, requiring less corrective action in the corners.

[steelcomp]

bandit,
Like I said, 'till you get to the first corner.

Starting at 70? What's that all about?
You sure put some narrow limitations on your performance. Street racing, straight line, top end only, from 70! Come on. Where's the challange?!

I prefer to smoke their asses to the corner, in the corner, through the corner, and out of the corner, and so on. I don't know what part of the midwest you are in, or what your driving conditions are. We have some AWSOME roads here in CA with miles and miles of every turn and terrain you could imagine, mixed in with mile(s) long straights. That's my idea of what a cobra is for. But to each his own.

If you've gone 170 in a rplica cobra on the street, or any Cobra for that matter,
You're nuts! (Isn't it fun!!)

I know what a Hyabusa is. Let's just say, I'm skeptical. HP to weight ratio dosen't work out in your favor. BUT...if you say so.

[Keithc8]

The aftermarket blocks have corrected the oiling problems you see with a stock block and are very strong. We build some 514 engines for the guys that are 10.8 to one with the ported Edelbrock or Ford Racing Cobra Jet head and hydraulic rollers that make about 700HP with the Edelbrock single plane intake and 950HP. This pretty easy to do and we do some 600C.I. drag engines with single 4bl. that make 1100HP and are very dependable with mild style roller cmashaft for bracket racing.
In a Cobra I would much prefer the aluminum block because of the weight of the steel block. We have built them in all forms depending on the budget. Keith

[xlr8or]

Living in San Diego and being close to work, I will be using my car as a daily driver when its done. I have no suicidal illusions of doing 170MPH. I want big block, big brakes and to go from 0-100-0 in 12 seconds. Weather here permits driving a roadster about 11 months of the year and I plan to take advantage of it. I will probably average almost 20K miles per year.

I am an admitted big block aholic and feel they rule the street but enjoy small block cars as well. A nice FIA 289 or GT40 with a screamin 347 stroker would blow my skirt up but are secondary choices.
As stated above the different motors all have thier plusses and minus's and can provide big HP numbers reliably if built correctly. I think right now the 385 series of crate motors offer the biggest bang for the buck. Because I decided to buy a Kirkham I will go with an FE because I feel that is the appropriate motor for such an accurate replica but if I had selected a different mfr I probably would have gone with the 460 to maximize the bang for the buck.

Just for fun I still want to beat the snot out of a Ferrari just once.

[Excaliber]

How often do I drive my replica? Depends on WHICH one! The Excalibur I drove just about everyday. 302 EFI, 5 speed, longer wider than the "typical" Cobra replica. EASY to drive, great on gas, handled good enough, was fast "enough".

Ahhhh,,,, but those were the "salad days" of Cobra ownership. Now I'm enjoying my ERA 427 MONSTER motor! I don't drive it everyday, it's just "to much". The thing is a handful and 60 mph comes up in 4 sec's or less, I don't know it's SO fast I can't measure it! Everything about the car is intense, it's manly, it's a brute I feel ALIVE when I drive!

Don't drive it as much as the Excal but get twice the thrill when I do. Can't wait to break in my new 12" clutch and get back to drag strip again!

[scottj]

Originally posted by steelcomp


Another note on weight and it's effect...you really need to get the car on a set of scales if you want to know where the weight is. It's really the only way of knowing what effect the changes you are making will have.

Total wet weight of the last "Butler" we set up was 2783 with a Motorsport crate 351 W. (Iron blk, al. hds and int) and a tremec TKO.
RF was 641
LF was 615
RR was 768
LR was 758. That was a F/R ratio of 4554%.
You can do the RF/LR and LF/RRcrosses, as well. It had a Left/49.3%Right/50.6%

That car with me in it at 157#:
RF was 641
RR was 806
LF was 659
LR was 834
Notice how my weight brought even a little more rear bias to the table. (F/R 44.2/ 55.7) The L/R ratios basically swapped sides. That was one of the sweetest handling cars I had ever driven! It wasn't over sprung, it had the right sway bars on it, a very rigid platform, and BALANCE!

(numbers were rounded off...but you get the point)

Thanks.

Steelcomp- That's interesting. I spent about a month experimenting with 4-wheel alignment, camber curves (especially rear), percentages, etc. and ended up with #'s nearly identical to yours. All testing was done using the "seat of the pants" method. The biggest problem with the handling was the power. Getting the car to be drivable off corners with 600 ft\lbs proved to be difficult.

T = 2938 w\158# driver and 10 gallons of fuel

R = 55.6%

LF 659 RF 645
LR 825 RR 809

434 cid DART small block
drysump
Richmond 5spd RR
C-4 susp.

The driver needs improving, but the car is pretty good now.