Hot Rod Magazine builds a Genesis

[RICK LAKE]

Ken Oikawa Ken I number I have is MSD8595. 370.00$ Jegs. Make sure that it is a double pickup. I was at E-town talking to one of the techs and he said that the upper housing assemblies can be swapped from a SBC to the FE distributor shaft assembly to get the dual set up. Check with MSD before you buy it. Make sure that the phasing is OK. I removed all the fins on my distrib but 1 for the firing of number1 cylinder in the msd. Speedpro needs a crank signal and cam. I have a Sequantial box with spark and fuel control. 8594 is a single pickup msd. My info may be wrong Check for yourself. Rick Lake

[Ken Oikawa]

Rick L

Thanks for the info. What are you using for crank signal?

I have MSD 8594 distributor ( needs to be modified for cam signal as you have done) and FE MSD crank trigger to mount on the balancer (will need spacers machined to align the pulleys). A dual SYNC distributor would eliminate the need for a crank trigger.

Ken

[RICK LAKE]

Ken O Ken I mounted my wheel on the back side of my balancer and made a bracket to mount on the left side of the motor. I have it at 53 degrees. I have seen others mount there on the right side of the engine, I think I am wrong but the system works fine. We did have to change the firing order and the injector order because when I got the Speed-pro it was a chevy set up. The motor ran but no adjustments worked. Dove used to sell a timing cover for a front motor plate, the 2 lower timing cover bolt holes are flush with the cover face. An L brace from 3/8 alum and a little welding , it works great. I have a ATI balancer with the chevy bolt pattern, something they didn't tell when I brought the damn thing. Had to go to ASP and have special pulleys made. I needed special ones anyway because of the supercharger. I also cut down my crank spacer to fit this in the ERA dur to the cross member in the front of the frame, bottom. The next motor is 484 or 489, FI,Speed-pro, with a dry sump setup. If I find the extra money a set of TWM 58mm throttle bodys. I am thinking of assaulting the 9'S with this setup with DOT tires. Have the trans and Heavy duty rear with3.31 now just need that 700 lb of tork. The rest is easy. Point and PRAY Rick Lake

[Sizzler]

or you could just buy a crank trigger mount kit from Gessford.
it includes the shortened spacer with provision for mounting the wheel and a bracket that bolts on using the front oil pan bolts.

As with all engine cost estimates that get posted here, it's hard to get details. What exactly would make that a $20K engine?

$4 for block
$1 for rods and crank
$1 for pistons, rings, fasteners
$1 for intake (conversion @500, intake @500)
$3 for misc parts

So where's the other $10K in expense?

[The Dreamer]

A Velasco crank alone is $2500, so $1000 for crank and rods is short. I think if you do a detailed estimate, you will easily find $5000 more in part cost. Don't forget labor which typically costs around $5000 or more.

[SCOBRAC]

It sounds like a lot, but I know a good number of people with $20,000 side oilers which are half way (.020 over) to becoming a boat anchors. They are making 530-550 hp (some less). Their engines are "original" (whatever that means) Cobra engines... That said while ours are original the Genesis is cool. All horsepower is expensive, how expensive depends on how fast you want to move. Your 675 hp FE is under $30. per hp. Theirs (mine too) is $36-37.

The most expensive side oiler I personally have ever seen was a "NOS" unit in which every part was brand new. It was $35,000. or $66 per hp. Those are initial costs. Long term costs are another matter. I can take my next rebuild out to .030 and maybe .040 or .050 the time after that. I suspect a standard bore Genesis will go much farther. I need to check but my gut says .080??? So. You can rebuild a 4.2356" bored genesis 4-5 times? 6 maybe. Conversely a "standard bore" side oiler can go 3 or maybe 4. Now how much did that Genesis cost???

Now as these things go we will see costs come way down with Barry and everyone else involved doing the leg work for us. That it made a major magazine is huge. It wouldn't have happened if he hadn't had a ton of faith in Genesis (more than I did). I for one really appreciate it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect in a few years to see these things in the 10-12k range with 550-600 very streetable horse power and more. I'm thinking 575 hp roller cam, roller rocker 454 that you never need to take the valve covers off... Imagine how clean your garage floor will be. Thats worth the price of admission.

I have a small stash of FE stuff I was thinking of selling. Intakes, ignitions, magneto, valve covers, etc. I think I might have to hold off. I have a feeling I will be needing them Thanks Barry...

[RICK LAKE]

Sizzler I built and assembled my motor in 97 Very few where even using a speed-pro system in there cars. I am sure that Georges kit would work fine, Whats the price? mine spacer $7.00 sensor kit $209, 2 pieces of 3" alum, $3.00. Made to last priceless. You will fine when you do thing something different than everyone else your on your own. As I said before I think that I have my crank sensor on the wrong side of the motor, it is to be on the right side, like Barry R motor. George can you go Righty-Lefty?. Thanks for the info. Rick Lake

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by The Dreamer


A Velasco crank alone is $2500, so $1000 for crank and rods is short. I think if you do a detailed estimate, you will easily find $5000 more in part cost. Don't forget labor which typically costs around $5000 or more.

But we KNOW his crank and rods are SCAT. Scat 4.25" cranks go for $500 on the street, ditto the rods

And it sounds like he did most of his own labor, or got it done at 'to the trade' prices.

So I ask again, what makes up the other $10K?

[RICK LAKE]

sizzler You guys are not taking into account that the block needed to be check and maybe machine work for starters. The heads had larger valves installed and ported or CNC. Scat crank, 500.00$ balanced and checked for bearings. Rods weighted and evened up to the same weight. Add all the other things on this motor, Speed-pro system 2550.00$ injectors 600.00$ throttle body 550.00. electric water pump 300.00 Dove intake 500.00,cam and lifters 725.00 Valve train( rocker stands, supports, shafts, and rockers400.00, timing gear set,100.00 Gaskets etc200.00 custom pushrods, 150.00. I can keep going, I think I can find the rest if I figure every other part needed. 13.5K for my shelby in 97 minus the speed-pro brain and injectors, block was 5G and the heads where 2850 with CNC work. Eagle rods,Aria pistons, crane cam, Hydro lifters, stock other parts. Machine work included for short block only. Question, When have you ever found a story on anything that was the STRAIGHT TRUTH? Got to sell those Rag Mags. I am gald that an FE build up was put in a magazine. Barry R seams OK from his e-mails so until other proof is needed, I except it. Rick Lake

[SCOBRAC]

Here...

http://www.gessford.com/quotes/engine.htm

[SCOBRAC]

http://www.gessford.com/quotes/images/MattGordon427.htm

[RICK LAKE]

ScobraC I Had George give me a quote, and he is in the ball park with other builders. George goes farther than others with some things to get perfect, matching bearing for rods, George uses 2 sets, other machinist use 1 set, cleaning and washing of the block some 20 minutes George 2-3 hours, and the list goes on. It's late, I am going to bed. You get the drift on this Rick Lake

[SCOBRAC]

Sizzler wanted to know where the money goes on a 20k engine. Kinda makes you wish you'd paid better attention in auto shop.

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by RICK LAKE


sizzler You guys are not taking into account that the block needed to be check and maybe machine work for starters. The heads had larger valves installed and ported or CNC. Scat crank, 500.00$ balanced and checked for bearings. Rods weighted and evened up to the same weight. Add all the other things on this motor, Speed-pro system 2550.00$ injectors 600.00$ throttle body 550.00. electric water pump 300.00 Dove intake 500.00,cam and lifters 725.00 Valve train( rocker stands, supports, shafts, and rockers400.00, timing gear set,100.00 Gaskets etc200.00 custom pushrods, 150.00. I can keep going, I think I can find the rest if I figure every other part needed. 13.5K for my shelby in 97 minus the speed-pro brain and injectors, block was 5G and the heads where 2850 with CNC work. Eagle rods,Aria pistons, crane cam, Hydro lifters, stock other parts.

I guess my used 390 longblock for $300 (with a lot of perfectly re-usable parts), cleaned up, trued up, bored out to sbc400 size, all for $1000 was some phenomenal bargain then. I guess I'm a just Sears guy of guy on a Lord & Taylor board? My injectors were around $250.

Where do these builders get their blocks? How much do they pay for them? How much do they then turn around and sell them for?

My original estimate:

$4 for block
$1 for rods and crank
$1 for pistons, rings, fasteners
$1 for intake (conversion @500, intake @500)
$3 for misc parts

Note the $3K in misc parts already listed, other than the Speedpro piece, that pretty much covers what you have listed above, so we're STILL at $10K plus $3K!!!!???? for heads, or about $13.5K which is what you say you spent...so we agee at the macro level.

So again, what makes up a $20K engine? And don't point me at a builder's quote as proof; I can get building costs for the same blueprints ranging from $65-$300 per square foot, for real. Which is what I'm trying to get to: for real costs.

[RICK LAKE]

sizzler I have the same why of thinking as you. I have a 410 motor in the garage as a spare for when I try to go through NJ inspection. 68. It has alot of used tested parts in it. only the gaskets are new everything else was rebuilt. I decided that I was not going to cut corners on the shelby motor. The crank is the only thing used, 10-10 and cross drilled from FFP. I have limited the motor to 6k with the msd chip. The next motor will be 484 with a forged crank L.A. Enterprise 2500.00 the Rods from Howard cams, go for 1k HP but at 800$ not 12-14 hundred for olivers,manleys, or cunningham's. I think I can fine great parts without the great price. I just got a Danny Bee timing set for 750.00 all new in the box. My 410 was 200 more than yours for all the work and parts. I am a K-Mart shopper in Sears We both work hard for the all mighty dollar. Ask Barry about the numbers Like I noted before there is not 1 mag writer that can write a story without fluff and puff. Just look at the Valve size numbers, 2.20 intake, WRONG, 2.19, Everything is a stretch. You know that FE blocks(iron are bring all different numbers, there is one on E-Bay, high nickle for what, 5G. Would I pay that, only for a show car. For what Iam going the Shelby is the way to go. In the long run, cheaper too. I am not sell my dream, it took to long to build. Rick Lake

[The Dreamer]

If you use used parts, you can do a engine for less. But, if I put in $3.5K+ for the block, I'm going to do the rest of the engine right and that means new parts. Nothing wrong with a budget build, but I keep my objectives in line. Like I said (George's website is a good place to look, but you can do one on your own), do a detailed estimate and you will see the parts add up. You back of the envelope calcs leave out a lot of stuff, even with the $3K.

[Barry_R]

Yeah - I can get a bit of a break on prices since I'm in the trade - - but using those as a price reference the average guy wouldn't be very honest, would it? You want to see how to use up 20 grand? I'll show in short order with no details, just some quick estimates - - just watch!

FE Engine Parts List
Part Manufacturer Price
Fasteners ARP 150.00
Spark Plugs Champion 45.52
Cam Comp Solid Roller 290.00
Lifters Competition Cams 329.00
Retainers Competition Cams 136.95
Valve Springs Competition Cams 310.00
Pushrods Crane 144.00
Intake Dove, Modified
by Wilson, Flow Tech 800.00
Rocker Shafts Dove 160.00
EFI System F.A.S.T. 2,200.00
Fuel Injectors F.A.S.T. 475.00
Head Gaskets Fel-Pro 64.00
Intake Gaskets Fel-Pro 17.00
Header Gaskets Fel-Pro 16.00
Valve Cover Gaskets 17.00
Misc. Gaskets Fel-Pro 25.99
Oil Pan Gaskets Fel-Pro 24.00
Balancer ATI 340.00
Heads Flow Technologies
base on Edelbrock 6676 - $1200 base 3,000.00
Block Genesis Iron 3,295.00
Headers Hooker 774.39
Water Pump Meziere 285.00
Oil Pan Moroso 180.00
Oil Pump Pickup Moroso 35.00
Distributor MSD 238.00
Coil MSD 8251 110.00
Ignition MSD 7520 530.00
Spark Plug Wires MSD 70.00
Crank Scat 695.00
Rods Scat 450.00
Cam Bearings Speed-Pro 39.61
Main Bearings Speed-Pro 37.50
Oil Pump Speed-Pro 52.31
Piston Rings Speed-Pro 136.31
Pistons Price estimate for reference 600.00
Rockers Speed-Pro 354.74
Rod Bearings Speed-Pro 66.99
Timing Set Speed-Pro 75.52
Throttle Body estimate 400.00
Sensors
Paint 3 cans Generic Ford Blue 15.00

Total Parts at published prices 16,984.83

Add in a couple days of shop assembly and dyno time and you are right at or even above the 20 grand mark. When you're putting together a solid roller, highly modified aftermarket block engine you're simply going to use up cash. No way around it. Could even the average guy do it for a lot less money? I sure hope so. But you're simply not going to do this for 10 grand - - sorry. Don't forget to include all the bolt on hardware that I did - - you cannot leave off headers or ignition just because they came on your car.

[Barry_R]

Oh - - and the valves actually are 2.20". We started out with 11/32 stem 2.25" Ferreas and trimmed them until they fit - barely.

[SCOBRAC]

Should have used the C5AE cast iron heads... The 2.25" valves fit quite nicely...

So Barry what is this beast in?

[Barry_R]

Yeah on the heads - - but they'd have cost even more than the aluminum ones to get a decent set and port them right. After which I'd still be bummin' if I broke something and had to fix 'em.

I have the engine in a black 1969 Torino notchback that I used to street race around Detroit many years ago. I still take it out to the occassional bracket race or test and tune - and ran it in Hot Rod's Pump GAs Drags in Memphis. So far I've gone 10.40's @ 131 on the motor, at 3600 pounds. I suspect that there is still a bit more in there - - and then we'll hit the spray.