Hot Rod Magazine builds a Genesis

[SCOBRAC]

Pg. 124... 675 HP 624 FT LBS of torque.

[What'saCobra?]

May, June or July issue?

[Sizzler]

I think the July issue...with 4 muscle cars on the cover and
something like "675 HP built with all new parts" at the bottom of the cover.

"All new" includes an old Dove single plane intake, a throttle body the guy had been using on an old 452" efi FE, some old rocker shafts of un-named manufacture (guessing never advertised in HR so no credit??).

Nice to see an FE build. Seemed to me that Hot Rod went out of its way to denigrate the build and the parts though. Calling it a dinosaur engine and antique and just generally damning the accomplishment with faint praise as it were. Or maybe I'm just overly sensitive .

In the same issue they get all effusive over a 69 Camaro that the text and headlines lead you to believe is an actual 69 Camaro that'll run with the big boy toys on the track. Read the actual parts and construction facts and you learn that it's got a custom frame, with all custom suspension and custom interior and aftermarket brakes and gauges and engine and...... Yeah, that's an original 69 Camaro alright. It does have an original steel 69 Camaro body...with glass deck and hood and plopped on flares on all four corners and some Superbird abomination of a rear wing.

[Ron61]

Sizzler,

After subscribing to Hot Rod Magazine for almost 10 years I cancelled my subscription this year because of their obnoxious answers to questions that people sent in and their bias to Chevy. I have nothing against Chevys but just got tired of every thing they wrote about a MOPAR or Ford, always wound up with how much better a Chevy version was. They have magazines that cover just Chevy just as Ford and MOPAR have their own coverage, so I felt that Hot Rod should cover all fairly. Also never believe anything you read on the cover until you have read the article and all the small stuff they try to ignore. Such as the 200 horsepower BOLT On power increase. When I read that article, I knew we have a difference of opinion about what consitutes bolt on. They had the block line bored and balanced, added new heads and intake, and about everything else you could do and then put it on the cover as a bolt on improvement. It is still a good magazine but I just grew tired of their ways.

Ron

[SCOBRAC]

Yea it was a little critical in some ways and contrite in others. The builder (an FE guy) got in several good points why FE's are by far better than the 385 (429/460 variants) including that the FE's are 100 lbs lighter than the 460.

It was also complimentry to Genesis and praised the blocks construction and finish. All in all it was a good piece. It kind of sucks though because demand will be higher than ever and the wait for a new block, crank etc. will be that much longer.

I do regret jumping into my 1966 C5AE 427 medium rise when I did. I never though Genesis would get to this point. I'm glad it's happining but I wish I had waited. The out the door price on a 600 hp engine couln't be more than 10k.

[Barry_R]

That's my engine in Hot Rod.
I think you are being a little sensitive - - I felt that they gave the buildup more than fair coverage. After all - the last FE was produced something like 28 years ago - - terms like "antique and dinosaur" are badges of honor when we still tear up the strip, and the competition. And.....dinosaur's have really sharp teeth!

The did give credit to Dove for the rocker shafts. I already owned the intake (we added the EFI stuff to my prior motor a year ago). I also already owned the throttle body - - what am I supposed to do - - throw them away?? They cost me mucho dinero and they work quite well.

The "all new" context was meant to point out that the engine has only five O.E. Ford parts on it: the two rocker covers, the timing cover, the crank spacer, and the cam thrust plate. All could have been replaced with aftermarket stuff if I felt like doing so.

Anyhow - - if anyone has any questions I'd be pleased to answer them to the best of my ability. A lot of what we did is pretty common knowledge to the sharp guys on this board - - but we did try a few oddball ideas - - just because we could.

Thanks,
Barry R.

[weekendwarrior]

Barry,

Info on the EFI. Who did the work on the Dove and worked out the map on the FAST. What is the engine idle speed? Is the EFI allout race or will it run on the street without loading up?

Very nice build!

Thanks

Gary

[Barry_R]

The EFI bungs were added to the intake by Wilson's Manifolds - a shop that does a fair amount of Nextel Cup (I still say Winston Cup) racing work. They're located in Florida.

The dyno EFI map was worked out by the guys at Wheel to Wheel Powertrain in Warren, Michigan. With that as a base, I've been working out the "in car" tuning for the past couple of months. It is actually quite drivable on the street, with a choppy 950-1000 RPM idle both in and out of gear. I have a fairly loose converter, and the car drives pretty well at most part throttle positions without loading up. I got into some very different fuel at the Pump Gas Drags which drastically changed the driving characteristics - so it is far to say that the car is sensitive to fuel content. But it does have adequate power for passing on the freeway....

[RICK LAKE]

Barry-R Barry nice motor. I have an Shelby motor done the same way except I did the work myself with the Dove intake and Speedo pro Seq box. I have a 501-533 cam in my motor with 9.2-1. the next is going for 11.0 compression. I didn't think you could put 2.25 valves in the Edelbrock heads and 1.75 exhaust and fit? Where is your crank sensor? I needed both for my system. I am only running 50lb injectors on my system. 1200 cfm accell throttle body, may be a little small, I would think the 1350 would be better. Are you going to try it? Your motor said 13.2 -1 static, when that motor heats up what is the compression number down to? Any reason for picking he 4.25 crank over the 4.125? Thanks for your time Barry. Fuel injection is still the best way to go except for webers. I may go with the twm 58mm on the next motor. Wheel to Wheel built an FE for Hot rod couple of years ago, I was trying to find out what cam they used in that motor, It was Fe with FI. Could get no reply from them. Rick Lake

[Barry_R]

My mistake on the valves - - I believe they started out at 2.25 but were trimmed to about 2.20 by the time we were done.

I went to 4.25 stroke because bigger is always better. I cannot think of any legitimate reason not to use the most stroke available when the price is the same. Sometimes (actually a lot of times) people get psyched into chasing 2 or 3 horsepower based on cryptic formulae and ratios - - and they leave 20 easy horses on the table.

I don't thiink that the extra CFM would mean much in my application since it flattens out at 6200.

Compression ratio are static no matter what the temperature. Dynamic ratios are a myth - - a simplistic means of predicting cylinder pressures. Actual cylinder pressure are so greatly impacted by so many variables that they defy simple predictive formuale.

[RICK LAKE]

Barry R Thanks for the info But a 1" spacer under that throttle body and get 5-10 hp at 5600 rpm, been there done that. I will look into the 1350 cfm and do it for starter on the 489 motor. A throttle body and a carb have different flow performances. Dones the oil rings clear the piston pin hole or are they in the pin hole? I like the NOS plate. Rick Lake

[Barry_R]

We didn't get a shot to play with spacers. The NOS plate is - ahem - "functional" but untested at this time. Given the huge plenum volume of the Dove I did not really consider adding more - but its a cheap try and I'll do it some time.

The rings do not cut into the oil groove. I work at Speed-Pro, and I really don't like it when folks do that. I am quite aware that guys do it all the time - but that don't mean that I have to agree. I feel that piston guys put tremendous effort in getting the grooves smooth and accurate - and then people chop 'em to insert a POS spacer adding weight to the ring pack. Oil control is vastly more important to making horsepower than is the incremental gains attributed to a smidgen of rod length.

The photos don't show it, but we ended up mounting a crank trigger to the passenger side of the engine down low - - where it interferes with the alternator mount (I guess i didn't have enough to do). My EFI is "bank to bank" - if I had needed a cam sensor the MSD distributor can be easily modified to serve the purpose.

[RICK LAKE]

Barry-R MSD finally came out with a dual pickup dis that is to take the place of a crank sensor. On your pistons is there enought air gap to keeps the rings from cooking. I want to do the same setup for motor number2. 4.25 crank, 6.7 BBC rods, Stock deck height on the shelby block. I don't want the oil rings in the pin hole. Your pistons come with coating to protect the sides of the cylinders and pistons. Do you have piston skirts to keep piston slap to a mininium? What are a set of custom pistons going for and is there a part number for either a 4.25 or 4.28 bore. Are your pistons forged or cast? Thanks for the info. Rick Lake Ps. I want a 11.0-1 compression with 85cc heads and 1020 head gaskets.

[Ken Oikawa]

Rick L
Do you have the part # for MSD dual pickup distributor?
I'm planning EFI for my SO.
Thanks,
Ken

[Barry_R]

My forged pistons were kinda custom - - their not available from Speed-Pro as a production part - - at least not yet. The compression distance was 1.350 - - plenty of room for the ring pack. I went to a 1/16-1/16-4.0mm ring set to gather a bit more room. The oil ring assembly is from a standard bore late model 460 Ford. Lots of skirt so piston slap is a non-issue.

Interesting news on the distributor.

[kanuck]

Would someone be kind enough to post a link to this artical.
thanks DEAN

[SCOBRAC]

The hot rod magazine website isn't updated to reflect the monthly content. It is in the current July 2004 issue. It's worth buying the magazine for the article alone. The 20,000 Ford Maveric, a profile on the "Daisy" V-10 and tons of other Ford stuff is just a bonus.

Thanks for dropping in Barry. How did you find us? I notice you hadn't been around before.

I hope you find something here useful. We have perhaps the best source of Ford and Cobra related information anywhere. I can't speak for anyone but myself be the Genesis block has been something of a Holy Grail for a good number of people here for a long time. We routinely see guys dropping 20k+ in 40 year old engine parts. While that's fine if what you want is a NOS engine most I think would be happy making 500 hp reliably and without excessive costs associated with "NOS" parts.

Can you tell us about how much you have invested in the engine? Obviously yours is a high end build and costs will vary but hopefully like everything else future production will force prices down as suppy catches up with demand. How long had you been waiting for your block and or planning this build?

Thanks in advance,

[Barry_R]

I found your site while looking for FE info - - and I've done a fair amount of lurking since then.

My block is a really early production piece from Genesis. I think it took nearly a year to get it - - but I knew that going into the project. Since I work at Speed-Pro, I have access to quite a few specs on components like bearings and lifters. I have contributed dimensional and component information to the guys at Genesis as they were designing the block. I think I was pretty early on in requesting a block for the project.

My position also means that I got a pretty good deal on some of the parts - - pistons, rings, and bearings. I also already had many items such as the heads and intake from a prior build - - although everything was extensively modified at least I wasn't starting from scratch.

We tried to calculate what it would cost to duplicate my engine using everything brand new and came up at around 20 grand (yikes!). The prices include everything - MSD box and distributor, headers, wires, paint, fasteners, head work dyno time, etc. You could easily cut out a third of the cost or more by using a carburetor, a flat tappet cam, and a more common intake manifold.

[afret]

Just saw the article. Really nice engine. I was wondering if those are the standard Dove rockers and not the wide bodied ones in the photos? If they are the standard ones were they used because they are a Speed Pro item? I know XR7 on the FE board has used them with his roller springs with somewhere around 500 lbs open with no problems but I think some recommend the wide bodied ones for stronger springs. I switched to HS rockers from the standard Doves and I run only about 450 lbs open since some of the Dove dealers state the standard rockers are only recommened to maybe somewhere less than 500 lbs or so (I think Dennis at DSC said good to about 400 lbs). Someone awhile ago posted some photos on the FE board of several broken standard Dove rockers which if I recall correctly happened to someone on the road who wasn't using killer springs. That kind of scared me and prompted me to switch. But I guess if you don't have any problems with your rockers at over 600 lbs I might have over reacted and could just have stuck with my Doves. Good luck and have fun with your new engine.

[Barry_R]

Yea - - those are standard wisth Doves. We at Speed-Pro buy them from Dove, and that's why I used them. I've only broken two in about a decade of racing and cruising with 700 lb springs - - both on one cylinder when I snuffed a head gasket. We did have a couple cracked ones upon teardown of my prior motor though - - I think my valvetrain geometry was not correct - - actually it "pulled a significant vacuum". Its fixed on this engine, and I'm hoping things stay OK.