Cam dowl pin sheard at cam

[Michael C Henry]

I've been putting this car together for ever.I thought I was nearing starting it.Cooling system filled all leaks stopped.I moved on to filling with oil and priming.I just have just been turning the crank with a long wrench at harmonic balancer.Have not spun it with the starter yet. Oh!The valves aren't moving. I install the distributer ,turn the crank some more ,no movement.Now I come against a stop.I start removing rockers ,water ,surgetank, alternator ,coolant pump, timing cover,
the cam dowl in my brand new Comp Cams Hex adjustable timing set is sheard.It hasn't ever even been spun with the starter yet.Is this normal? does this crap only happen to me?How do I get the peice out of the cam shaft?Is there a better dowl pin to be had?

[trularin]

The pin is for alignment and to drive the CAM. If you have cut off pin, are both pieces in your hand, engine or a box somewhere?

The pin should NOT break, unless there has/was undue stress exerted on it.

I do not know your abilities to assemble and engine, but I have to ask if it was there when you put it together. Additionally, if it was there, did you:
Coat the entire bump stick with red snots before you installed it?
Laddled it in without scratching, marring or digging into the bearings?
Are the bearings aligned so you can turn the CAM with your bare hand in place with nothing attached?
Did you use any "offset" keys, dowels ot devices to adjust the CAM timing that would cause it to freeze in place?
Did you make sure you could turn the CAM after the CAM gear was placed, but before the chain/gears were installed?
Did you allow someone to help you assemble the engine and they put the CAM in?

The list is long and I think I could go on.

As I understand it, the pin is a light press, so you might be able to pull it. Worst case, send it to the CAM people and let them do it.

Just my $0.03 ( you get a little extra )

[Michael C Henry]

I'm trying to remove the peice of dowl from the camshaft now.It's stuck good. 2 hours, and a Drill Doctor and and 1" of length off a 3/16" carbide bit I'm in 1/4". The hole in the cam gear is lot larger than the dowl. The engine has only been turned over by the crank by hand.either levering the starter ring with a screwdriver to rotate the flywheel to remove and reinstall the clutch or a large 15/16" boxed end wrench on the harmonic balancer.The back of the cam gear is gouged from being rotted past tthe broken peice of dowl pin.The hole in the cam gear is a bit larger than the dowl pin enough for a bushing.The valvesprings are the ones that came with engine.I do not want to remove this engine again..Icant remove the cam shaft in frame with out removing all the radiator shrouding and dropping the radiator out the bottom.I aint doing that again.

[blykins]

I would check piston to valve clearance also....to make sure the valve wasn't hitting the piston....and then the extra force didn't cause the pin to shear.

[Michael C Henry]

I'm sure the valves and piston( one or more) touched after the dowl was broken while being turned over by hand.I felt the resistance but didn't know what was going on .Hell I just noticed that the valves wern't moving .The distrib was installed as a visual indicator to see if the cam was moving. The heads pistons have not changed . Just polished the crank(still std.) ,new bearings,honed the cylinders and new second and third rings.New camshaft lifters pushrods and timing set.The back of the cam gear was gouged by the broken pin.How long is the dowl in the shaft? what is better than a carbide bit?I'm just at 1/4" penatration.
I called Comp Cams for assistance I was told that the dowl is just there for indexing and the bolt tension was what turned everything.The tech was going to get a gear set and check out the pin and hole sizedifferences..Haven't heard back yet.

[RICK LAKE]

Michael H Mike On that dowel pin for the cam I had the same problem You should mike the hole and get a piece of round tool steel for the next pin. .304 was the hole in my crane cam and I had the loose pin problem too. The stock pin is too loose, you can tap it in but will not hold. If you have solid lifter you may have bent some valves, hydro lifter you should be safe. If you drill out the pin to .250, look for the next size up pin to install, .258-.260 diameter. You should pull the motor apart and check for other damage. Sorry . Call comp and ask what size the pin is to be, Then tell them that the hole is over sizes. Talk to a senior tech not one of the under studies. Crane does the same thing, I got a new cam free, but worked with the first one. This is why a great machinist is SO IMPORTANT. I hope for little damage, check the endplay on the cam when done and there should be no side to side between the cam dowel and hole in the cam sprocket. Rick Lake

[Michael C Henry]

This all started Feb of 02.I removed the intake manifold and sent it to George Anderson for pressure testing and milling.Then I had it and the steel plate under it ceramic coated.When reassembleing it I managed to pull the center two rocker studs Heli-coils and all from both heads.I never suspected anything was wrong.The pulled studs were not evedent at the machine shop and upon reassembly when securing the rockers again that is when I fount that the studs were pulling and probably one of the original problems. I had to remove the heads again and have them repaired with screw in inserts.I'm out of sequence but bare with me.The valve adjustments Kept changing ,looser.I found two lifters that I couldn't remove.one on #1 and another on #7.I knew that I had a flat cam and mushroomed lifters.I Removed the radiator and all the shrouding shrouding first then radiator out the bottom,just to pull the cam.I found that very little of me fits into the nose hole ,I'm facing down and can't see or reach anything.I was worried about all that metal.so I removed the engine So I pulled the engine and had it gone through.All the metal had been caught in the filter,no other damage.While its apart I made some changes and it hasn't run since.If I have to remove the cam shaft the engine is comming out.I'm actually tired of working on it.all the while paying insurance and liescening. The stack of receipts large and minor expense are a sore subject..The be running by date keeps being pushed back and I'm being accused of wanting to never finish anything.Gas is so much more than when I stopped driving it.
The cam dowl fits the excentric and the camshaft.It's just the cam gear hole is way too large as if it was supposed to have a bushing.The previous cam drive had a stepped dowl and an offset bushing.I didn't have any of the other bushings so I elected to go with a new timing set.I'm tring to get a hole through the broken dowl pin .Then I'll try to wedgeing a screw into it, or pack it with grease and try to hydruallic it out, or lastly grind it up with a dremmel rotary files cut from the side and don't drill worth a crap.But I'm open to any ideas or suggestions.

[gene giambona]

Mike,

Gee what a coincidence, we put a competition cam in my motor with the same results. The cam pin sheared right off simply turning the motor over by hand one day..........we were lucky enough to have it happen on the engine stand, but it was still a pain in the A$$ to remove since the drilling method didn't work for us either. I'll ask my buddy to offer some suggestions on the removal of the pin that is now stuck in your cam.....I think he took the cam to work and had the remaining piece disintegrated with some special equipment.

P.S. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH OUR MOTOR BUILD....the stupid pin was simply overly hardened. I'm willing to bet they made a bad batch of these dowel pins and we were the "lucky" ones to get them. Hmmm....why can't we have the same luck with the lottery!

Hang in there........it will all be worth it once the car is running!

Gene

[RICK LAKE]

Mike Check and see if the hole for the pin is all the way through the cam? If so get a press and a drift pin and punch it through. DON'T Scratch the lobe surfaces. If you did this damage you may have other problems Like spring bind you need .110 feeler gauge to fix between the springs on the exhaust and .130 on the intake, This is the blueprint specs I have found. If too tight you need a smaller cam or head work Your piston to valve clearance may also be to tight. I don't have that clearance with me at this time but can check and e-mail you. Is the cam over .600"? Could the cam bearings not be lined up? Pull the motor and recheck. Sorry for your problems. There is no such thing as a too hard camshaft pin. Tool steel works for me. A cheap answer is to get a drill bit cobalt or tunsten and cut the end of the drill bit to fit the hole with .003-.005 tightness. It works. Snap on or Matco have the right drill bits. Good Luck Rick Lake

[Michael C Henry]

Cam shaft out and delivered to a machinist,where is the sport in that.My left elbow is all carved up from bracing against the top radiator inlet.

[Michael C Henry]

Just got the call back from Comp Cams .Tech insists that the dowl is just for locating .Cam dowl pin could be removed after cam bolt is torqued and camshaft would turn with just bolt tension.I'm not totaly sold yet.I see the thicknes of the cam gear not supporting the pin,possible flex and breakage.Engine never was spun with starter

[SFfiredog]

Mike,
Here is the problem with that piece of **** hex-adjust timing set.
I built the motor for Gene (see post above)
The cam pin is only supported by the amount the pin goes into the cam and the very small amount held in the fuel pump eccentric.
It never touches the cam gear. There is way too much shear load on the pin. and next to no support for the pin.
And, the Comp reps gave me the same bull**** story about the bolt torque.
I told them to put it in writing and sign it so I can give it to my lawyer after the engine destroys itself.
They refused.
Mike, give me a call during the day at (415) 550-4626 and I'll fill you in .
Also, take the timing set off and throw it in the garbage.
You don't want to take that risk with your engine.
--Mike

[Rick Parker]

Mike:

The pin is made of hardened material it is intended to be a PRESS FIT in the cam and a very close slip fit in the cam gear. HOWEVER some of the pins have a reduced diameter in the length used to register the cam gear to allow for various bushings to be inserted in the large hole/small pin. I have seen these sold by Mr Gasket on a card they are Ford specific, about 1/2"- 3/4", long not the thinner Chevrolet version. Since Ford's engineering uses only 1 large center bolt to secure the cam gear the bolt must be of high quality and torqued properly as the clamping force created is the crucial. If you do not use the bushings to adjust the cam timing but rather the muti grooved crank sprocket it is vital that the pin fit in the cam gear without ANY slop. The pin for this application will not have a reduced diameter. The installed height of the pin and or bushing must be below the surface of the cam gear or the washer will not be able to clamp the cam gear securely to the cam.
It is not unusual to see 2 dowels used, (high spring loads & RPM) 180 degrees apart. The dowel (s) do share in the torque loading to some degree but the gear mut be clamped tightly (use 262 Locktite) to prevent any movement in this critical area.
From what you are describing there is no easy way out, a new pin will have to be installed and it will be best, as difficult as it is to accept to have full access to the front of the engine outside of the car. If you do othewise be sure you do not dislodge the cam plug on the back of the engine.

Sorry

Rick

[SFfiredog]

Rick,
I kinda figured out the whole Ford cam pin thing about 25 years ago Also I only use Loctite 271 on a cam bolt and torque it to the proper specs
The Comp Cams Hex-adjust timing set is a new thing that Comp Cams has released. The kit uses a 2nd, smaller dowel pin to allow cam timing adjustments to be made without having to remove the timing set.
It is too much effort to explain exactly what it looks like but it is different than a standard timing set.
You have to see one to understand what I'm talking about.
Maybe I'll take photos of the one I have.
I'll have to dig it up off the floor cause I'm using it to level out the leg of my work bench

--Mike

[Michael C Henry]

I got through.I'm letting the 1/8" moto tool cool. I taped off the front of the engine and used two cheap diamond tiped 1/8"" ball shaped burrs to get a dimple made foe centering drill bit.Cobalt doesn't seem to faze it.4 hours with a 5/32 solid carbide bit and a Drill Doctor= 1/4".Bought two new 5/32" cobalt bits.I didn't seen any chips.a 1/8/ carbide tiped bit for safes=$12.36.That bit is not entended for the Drill Doctor but I managed to get almost through before I lost the tip completely.So I started with a carbide rotary file burr.I worked it around and went through.I tried to get a screw lodged and pull ,no movement.Now I'm cutting the broken peice into at least two main peices calasp it inward and remove the peices.I use this method on bolts and plugs at work,but i usually have a better view. The burr and moto tool are hot and need to cool.I kept removing the fileings with a magnet and a 1/8 steel probe..I wish I had a better view. Comp Cams is sending a new pin <hop is new and improved. If ths happens a gain I do not know which way I'll go off.I'll defenatly let everyone know about it.Probably take out an add in a magazine.

[RICK LAKE]

Mike H Mike you will have the same problem again, the pin will fgix the hole but not be tight. That pin is there to stop the cam sprocket from going back and forward. That pin should never wear out. The fuel eccentric uses that pin to run and move the fuel pump arm. Those techs at crane and comp don't know crap at times. 1 note a went with the FFP gear and chain and had no problem other than the pin size. If a good drill bit at the .003 size and loctite it in. Press it don't hammer it in. Rick Lake

[Michael C Henry]

I got the broken piece out one quarter came free and a Phillips #2 and I was able to twist and pull the rest out. It's slick but I now know it has a problem . I have my doubts now about the Comp Cams Hex Adjustable timing set.The ease of seting the timing is not a close to fare trade off for strength.You still have to take the whole front apart. It took at least three hours not to mention gaskets= thremostat coolant pump timing cover and oil pan gaskets. I can't get the pan off without removing the engine.So I'll repair the damaged area of the top oil pan gasket w/ blue RTV.I now vote for reliability everytime.I'm going with the recamended seting and probably never mess with it again.

[RICK LAKE]

Mike H sorry you got screwed. You know they have had this system out for 40years, it goes back to the 60's with cam phazing. It didnot work very well then and I can see it is no better today. I would call and ask for a refund. I would then explain about the Club you are in, almost 10,000 strong and growing. See what happens. Simple thigns sometimes work the best. I will let you know, I am going to try a Danny bee timing set for my next motor. Hope I don't have the same problem as you. You will fill better after it is togeather and a road test is done. You always smile Rick Lake

[Scouder]

If it is any consolation it is not just the comp gears that have the problem. I just had the exact same thing happen with my Cloyes unit. Dowel pin sheared just in front of cam. Luckily the cam didn't spin on the gear, so no damage to 0 miles 511 Shelby. I have disabled the adjustable timing by having a machinist spin me up a tool steel pin that locks everything in place. From this point on I will never have an adjustable cam gear. It could easily have cost me thousands of dollars and most of my sanity.

-Scouder

[Michael C Henry]

I was just looking for the information just mentioned. Looking through the latest Summit catalog.The Hex -A -just is listed as Cloyes now.It has the same 3108 number but mentions a bushing that is turned with an allen wrench.It is also listed as a new product.I was asked by the Comp tech if I'd rather have a different timing set.I didn't know and setteled for just another dowl pin.The more I hear the more I doubt this set up.Releiability is on of the most important considerations.My wife asked me if this could happen again.My answer has to be yes.This happened while being turned by hand with a long boxed end wrench. never spun by the starter.The cam gear did spin on the cam.the back of the cam gear was gouged by the broken pin still in the cam.If this happened while running the cost would end it I'm afraid.Working on it again while not having to make all the changes I have over the last two years would still be more than I'm prepaired for.it has to work great and last forever.Probably not going to happen.I'm not looking forward to looking for all the instructions and receipts to resolve this. I don't even know what I want instead.But now I'll loose even more sleep and wait for parts to show up again.