External oil pumps/roller cams/bronze gears

[Jamo]

Thanks for the insights, Mike.

BTW, I'm running a Clay Smith FE Ford R-300-0-SB
110 L/C
Int/Ex 264 duration at .050, Int/Ex 658 lift
Int opens 40 BTDC/closes 80 ABC
Ex opens 80 BBDC/closes 40 ATDC

I don't know which way I'm going yet, but at least it will be an informed decision from the information I've gained from those who have posted.

[Jamo]

Dam!!!

$1,000 for the Schubecks! Innovative as all beat out, though. Plus the labor of tapping and putting in the specialized guides.

Probably the wave of the future.

[RICK LAKE]

SFriedog Roller lifters have become a common thing in the LS1 or any pushrod engine still being made. Roller do break and put bearings all over the motor, if you are luck the oil pump will pick them up and only break the pump or gear for the drive. You have alot of motor out there with lifts of .650" and more. This is what is killing these motors, not the roller setup. A custom cam with a lft of 600" should have no problem with the problems you refer to. I call crane and got a custom number with 565"-583" with 110 lobe seperation. Great tork cam with good Hp. You have a Danny bee timing set on one of your motors? In the beginning timing belts where breaking and not INSTALLED right causing damage to motors. Now most overhead cam motors run them and turn 9000 rpm with no problems. The belts last 75,000 miles. I am going with a Danny bee timing set on my new motor. Put the right parts togeather and set right, there should be any problems. 1 other point the roller cam and flat tappet have 2 different design lobes. There is alot more friction on the flat than the roller, roller also oils the cam lobe and wheel, flat tappets rely on oils splash. I would perfer anyway 600 of tork to 600 hp. Rick Lake

[PatBuckley]

Thanks Mike -

I think you will agree that roller cams (including lifters, springs, retainers, seats) have come a long way in the last 10 years - it used to be that a roller was a for sure a bad thing on a street car that was driven around with lots of idling and low rpm use - not that todays rollers should be driven like an old lady but they are more tolerant of it.

I am pretty comfortable with my choice based on the cars use, how frequently I adjust valves, change the oil, and generally keep an eye on things as well as the fact that I have a dry sump.

I suspect your comment about building an engine that would only give up 20 hp while using a flat tappet cam was kind of like saying that you could build a 300 cubic inch engine that would make almost as much hp as a 400 cubic inch engine - true if you spec'ed the hell out of the 300 incher and kept the 400 incher pretty tame.......is that what you were saying?

Take care,

Pat

PS - Turk and I need some of those neat exhaust clamps - I recall you saying you had a line on them...do you still?

[Morris]

SuperCharger......Intercooler......

Morris

[PatBuckley]

Assolutely!

[Hotfingrs]

Jamo, Did a lot of phone calling and talking to manufacturer's over the winter....First I always get my cams made with a cast gear, so I don't have to worry about changing or wearing out...Second as far as roller lifters go, I had been using Compcams and also been breaking them the last two years, I settled on Crower with the pressure oiling to the roller. Cost around 700 for a set...I used the .874 Ford lifters. The propaganda that comes in the box with the lifters, also stated there is no need to have these rebuilt every x number of miles like the "competition". I figured since the vast majority of top fuel and funny cars are running Crower this was the way to go. I was also told by different cam makers that my open spring pressure was to high...around 630lbs open...when I talked to Crower, they asked if I was happy with the springs I was running and if I was, to keep using them...their lifters would stand up to anything....even the occasional romp in the cornfield.

[Morris]

Pat

More power less valve train problems ........Change the pulley.....my kinda SuperCharger.....

Chris has me going on this Whipple/ Intercooler

I believe they make one for a SB....We'd have to make the one for the FE

Morris

[Jamo]

Pat
Does Mike have the clamps we saw in Vegas?

[Jamo]

Hey Sweet Lips...Jack

You're lucky. As Mike indicates, the pressed in gears are avaiable for Chevys and possibly for SB Fords, but I haven't found squat for FEs. If I tore my motor down often like a pro drag racer, I wouldn't worry.

If I'm going to spend that much on lifters, I think I'd try the Schubecks and really not worry about needle bearings (cuz there ain't none).


Morris

If I wanted forced induction, I'd get a ricer. Although, a nice fat BDS sticking out of the hood is always proper attire at any function.


Pat

I suspect yours is right for you...especially with the dry sump.



I'm still up in the air. I have the motor out for some work, so changing cam/lifters is relatively easy to do right now. Here are some definite facts from what I've gleaned for FEs...somebody tell me if I'm wrong on any of these.

1. Broken needle bearings for roller lifters are nasty little basturds. They are akin to genitle crabs...they get into everything and they bite like hell.

2. Roller cams make mo betta horsepower.

3. Flat tappet setups can make tons of horses, can result in flattened cam lobes, need break in, allow for steel distributor gears and need lash adjustments less often.

4. Roller cams (for FEs) require bronze gears...they may last 12,000 miles, or they might not.

5. Roller cams require no break in.

While money is not a huge factor, the Schubecks are just a bit out of line, especially for a fairly new product. Like computers, maybe that price will come down in a year or so.

So, what about hydraulic roller cams? I note the Mr. Craft uses them for them big hp motors, and they obviously cut way down on maintenance...better than flat tappets? I presume needle bearings can come flying out of the hydraulic rollers like solid rollers, albeit less likely. What about float? Bronze gears for them as well?

Thank you gentlemen...keep it coming.

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by Jamo


Sizzler...yup, the production motor type cams do have that...maybe in a year the mfgs will move to them for this racing stuff. BTW, who are you quoting?

I have a Crane roller. I ordered it with a bronze gear first, my engine builder took one look at it and told me I was crazy. He ordered the iron version for me.

Quoting Crane I think.

[Jamo]

Sizzzzzz......

I'll look into that.

[Hotfingrs]

Questions

1. True....but also remember, when you lose a roller lifter, you'll probably wipe the cam also, as I've done the last 2yrs...that's why I'm running what I am now.

2. True...because you can use more aggressive ramps.

3. True...but need less adjustments than what? I use a jesel rocker system, set it once and never worry again...

4. Don't know for sure....you use the softer gear on the distributor, and replace the dist gear when needed. Even if it lasts for 12,000 miles...how many miles do you put on a year. I do believe any cam can be made with a cast gear, you just have to call cam maker and order it....if the billet is in stock, they can grind it for you in a day...if not you may have to wait a few weeks.

5. True..nothing else needs to be said on this, unless you have a new engine, then the rings still need to be seated

[Jamo]

Yup...'cept my bronze gear became a paperweight at 3500 miles. A terrible feeling comes over you when the motor snaps and winds down.

I'm going to check into the things you bring up, Jack. The pressure oiled rollers (Crower) at least alleviate having to rely on splash oiling.


Sizzler...found the quote...it's from Chevy Hi performance. No question about it, pressed in gears are avaiable for Chevys and Ford SB and possibly for truck/bus/station wagon motors (429/460) [hehehe...], but I've yet to come across them for FEs. Are you running a solid roller or a hydraulic roller in the 390?

[PatBuckley]

Jamo -

As I recall you were using straight 50 weight oil in your motor - I don't think that helped your distributor gear longevity at all especially since you were probably using a high volume oil pump on top of it...

I f I were you I would go for the hydraulic rollers.

The clamps I referred to are the ones that Turk and I used on our ERA's...different from the ones we saw at Shelby.

Jack -

I am also using the Crower roller lifters based on improved oiling - a good choice I think.

Pat

[Jamo]

Could be, Pat, could be.

So, besides the maintenance benefits, why the hydraulic roller over a flat tappet?

I'm going to hunt down the cost, etc. of those clamps we saw at SAI.

[Hotfingrs]

Jamo, didn't know you were using 50W...straight no less. I'm using 20w-50 right now and will switch to Royal Purple when the engine is broken in....but when my engine is cold I pull 80 lbs oil pressure and my engine builder said not to get on it until the oil was hot or I'd shear the pin holding the dist gear on....something else for you to think about.

[Jamo]

Actually, switched to 20/50 in December after the first 2800 miles, and I didn't drive much during the winter anyway, so I'm not real sure how much it affected the situation. I'm pretty good about letting it idle until warm. My oil pressure is about 80-85 lbs cold, about 70-75lbs warmed up.

I'm certainly not the only one to have used 50w racing oil on a roller cammed motor. If the bronze gears are that sensitive to oil weight, then they are a POS setup in my book.

[PatBuckley]

As with any gear, the more strain/pressure you put on it the shorter the life span.

I notice that a lot of guys (and Joe probably did too) use a stronger oil pump drive shaft when they use a high volume pump...I know why.

[Jamo]

Hmm.... the MSD is damn near a free wheeling device, so all the gear is really doing is turning the pump...stronger shaft, high volume, whatever.

Obviously, not every roller cammed FE is using an external pump, and more than a few are using 50w racing oil in the summer.

Not all that concerned about what made my gear snap. More concerned that it could snap without jumping through hoops and about running a motor for the street/long drives/some autoX and some open track, but no drag racing (other than burnouts)...in other words, no more than I would expect from a damn new Vette.

I've been hitting the internet and visiting forums for motors and cars concerning roller cam setups, and bronze gear failures and roller lifters coming apart are more than a occasional or freak situation. And they do occur with external pumps, whether wet or dry. Racers are switching the bronze gears regularly. Mike's (Fire Dog's) synopsis pretty well summed up everything I've read. Add to that concerns about cam creeping and an assortment of other stuff we haven't even talked about here.

Really leaning toward a flat tappet. Less parts to be concerned about inside the bowels of the motor. If I give up some hp, and how much USABLE horesepower is given up is really in dispute...seems I would lose less in the low and middle if I chose the right flat tappet grind...I have some other areas to make it up if I felt the need, which is debatable given the power of this sucker in a 2200 lb car.

Two things could change the equation for sure...Schubeck liftersw and pressed in gears for FE cams. The former is still fairly new and expensive; the latter don't seem to exist this side of having a cam built (unless I missed something checking the cam sites and forums).

Only thing I haven't heard thus far are good arguments concerning the pros and cons of a roller hydraulic versus a flat tappet setup. Obviously, I'm still going to run roller rockers up top no matter what I do.

Because I am fickle...I may not change a damn thing and keep the current cam setup.