External oil pumps/roller cams/bronze gears

[Hotfingrs]

"Two things could change the equation for sure...Schubeck liftersw and pressed in gears for FE cams. The former is still fairly new and expensive; the latter don't seem to exist this side of having a cam built (unless I missed something checking the cam sites and forums). ...."

This is something that isn't on any of the cam sites...you have to call and request it and then when you order it's usually an extra letter after the part number.....btdt

[SFfiredog]

SFfriedog!?? who the hell is that Actually, that sounds pretty good... friedogs for dinner!!;-)
Stock engines like 5.0 Fords anf LS1 Chevys don't count because the lobes are REAL mild and usually have valve spring seat pressures of under 100 lbs.
Which brings me to the next point. Roller cams make big horespower when ground to race specs.
If you grind a roller cam with valve lifts, lobe centers and ramp designs designed to work in a street engine (like under .650 lift and 260 degrees duration for example) you are still in the reality range of a flat tappet cam. Will the roller make more power? Yes, definately. but not a bunch more power. In a race engine, where all the advantages of a roller cam can be utilized in cam design, they will make a bunch more power.
Also, as far as lifter oiling is concerned, It totally depends on what block you are using. A pre-67 side oiler block has no provisions for lifter oiling no matter what lifter you use. Shelby blocks don't have this problem. The only roller lifter that I have seen that has a dedicated pressure oiling system for the roller needle bearings are made by Jesel and are around $1800 a set.
The other lifters have slots in the side of the lifter body that allow the needles to get oil, if you have pressure fed lifter galleys.
THings are better now than ever for running a roller on the street, but they still have drawbacks for most users.
I have used the Danny Bee Belt drive on a small block and on a 460 and it is awsome. I really like the idler/tensioner that most other belts don't have. The belt is at least twice as wide as the other manufactures and will last a long time.
--Mike

Originally posted by RICK LAKE


SFriedog Roller lifters have become a common thing in the LS1 or any pushrod engine still being made. Roller do break and put bearings all over the motor, if you are luck the oil pump will pick them up and only break the pump or gear for the drive. You have alot of motor out there with lifts of .650" and more. This is what is killing these motors, not the roller setup. A custom cam with a lft of 600" should have no problem with the problems you refer to. I call crane and got a custom number with 565"-583" with 110 lobe seperation. Great tork cam with good Hp. You have a Danny bee timing set on one of your motors? In the beginning timing belts where breaking and not INSTALLED right causing damage to motors. Now most overhead cam motors run them and turn 9000 rpm with no problems. The belts last 75,000 miles. I am going with a Danny bee timing set on my new motor. Put the right parts togeather and set right, there should be any problems. 1 other point the roller cam and flat tappet have 2 different design lobes. There is alot more friction on the flat than the roller, roller also oils the cam lobe and wheel, flat tappets rely on oils splash. I would perfer anyway 600 of tork to 600 hp. Rick Lake

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by Jamo


Dam!!!

$1,000 for the Schubecks! Innovative as all beat out, though. Plus the labor of tapping and putting in the specialized guides.

Probably the wave of the future.

Jamin,

I was talking about the flat style Schubeck lifters.
$720 and they are a drop in, no machine work required.
They have been around for at least ten years.
They are in somewhat of a paradox though, the racers usually are allowed to use roller cams so they don't need them, the street guys think they are too expensive, the racing classes that only allow flat tappet cams usually outlaw composite lifters and contests like the Popular Hot Rodding Engine Masters outlawed them.
That is why you don't hear that much about them.
I can tell you that just about every NHRA Stock class record holder uses Schubeck lifters though, That should count for something!
I like hydraulic rollers but because there are no 8620 cam blanks for an FE you still have to run a billet cam therefore you still need a bronze distributor gear
I gotta come out to the valley and vist you guys (Turk, Pat yourself, and the rest of the local Gashole gang). What's going on this summer? Whatever it is can we get Turk to pay for it?

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by PatBuckley


Thanks Mike -

I think you will agree that roller cams (including lifters, springs, retainers, seats) have come a long way in the last 10 years - it used to be that a roller was a for sure a bad thing on a street car that was driven around with lots of idling and low rpm use - not that todays rollers should be driven like an old lady but they are more tolerant of it.

I am pretty comfortable with my choice based on the cars use, how frequently I adjust valves, change the oil, and generally keep an eye on things as well as the fact that I have a dry sump.

I suspect your comment about building an engine that would only give up 20 hp while using a flat tappet cam was kind of like saying that you could build a 300 cubic inch engine that would make almost as much hp as a 400 cubic inch engine - true if you spec'ed the hell out of the 300 incher and kept the 400 incher pretty tame.......is that what you were saying?

Take care,

Pat

PS - Turk and I need some of those neat exhaust clamps - I recall you saying you had a line on them...do you still?

Pat,
You got it! It's like shooting a guy in the head with a 9mm at point blank or with a .45 ACP at point blank. They are both gonna make a big hole, just like a street engine. Now, if you shoot Jamo in the head with a 9mm (not that anyone would EVER do that )
It might bounce off, so you would need to step up to the .45 ACP,
just like a race engine
You are a meticulous gear head like myself and you do very nice and competent work so I have no doubt that you will have no problems with the maintenance required of a roller cam.
I am also sure you used top of the line components as well.
Your big advantage is the dry-sump. As you stated, there is next to no load on your distributor gear so it should last a very long time. Purchase a good on-engine valve spring tester and keep an eye on the seat pressures and also be very aware of changes in your valve lash during adustment. A gradual or sudden change in valve lash is the first sign a roller bearing is going away.
And, I'll bet that Jamo is not a wrench-head and would rather be driving his beautiful car instead of paying someone to work on it. That's why I figured he would be happier with a flat tappet.
Exhaust clamps like the ones you guys installed at Turk's are no problem. Just let me know the size and how many you need.
All the best,
--Mike

[Jamo]

Friscohotdog

You pretty well summed up Pat and myself. He likes to tinker...I work for a living.

We be going to Mexico in September...Ensenada. You up for it?

Bring cash.

I'll go back to the Schubeck site. I was actually trying to figure out how to pay for those non-bearing rollers, though.

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by Jamo


Friscohotdog

You pretty well summed up Pat and myself. He likes to tinker...I work for a living.

We be going to Mexico in September...Ensenada. You up for it?

Bring cash.

I'll go back to the Schubeck site. I was actually trying to figure out how to pay for those non-bearing rollers, though.

Great...
Turk in a Sombrero... the Fedarales will never let him back into this country... wait... maybe that's a good thing

--Mike

[Jamo]

Shhh.....that's the plan.

BTW, thanks for that on the hydraulic roller cams...if I would still have to use a bronze, I might as well stick with the solid roller. Or go to the flat tappet.

[Hotfingrs]

The only roller lifter that I have seen that has a dedicated pressure oiling system for the roller needle bearings are made by Jesel and are around $1800 a set.

Better check out page 110 of Crower catalog...their High Pressure Pin Oiling....and they have had that a heck of a lot longer than Jesel

[Jamo]

from Hotfingrs: "xxxx"

What are those? You giving me a goodnight kiss? I wuv you too.

[Hotfingrs]

You Wish......lol....I can never get the full box with all the editing features without posting first, then editing the post....you know quotes, bold, smilies....and it's set up in my preferences to get everything

[Jamo]

BTW, thanks for all the info and insights.

[Hotfingrs]

YW

[wilf leek]

Jamo - you asked about hydraulic roller cams. As you know, I run a hydraulic roller in my (admittedly tiny) engine:

These are more likely to have longer lifter roller bearing life because:

1: They limit revs - the lifters are heavier than solid rollers plus you have the hydraulic pump-up issue.

2: Because they limit revs, any good engine builder would then put correspondingly weaker valve springs in - it is high revs that dictate high valve spring strengths to maintain control of the valve train. Lower spring weights means less stress on the lifter roller bearing.

3: Because of their self adjusting and zero-lash nature, the lifter roller doesn't see any impact hammering. (unless you rev the thing past the valve-float point). It is happier that way.

So, only go that route if you are happy with say, around 6000rpm tops. I know that someone will pop up and say that their hydraulic roller cam revs to 7500, but I would suspect that is a rare case.

I went the hydraulic roller route because I did not want to rev my engine past 6k, I wanted it to live a long time without going totally bonkers over it's internal components. I also don't like cam-break-in - it can be a real problem keeping an engine cool during that period once it is in the car.
Under-hood clearance issues on my car dictated a dual-plane inlet manifold, no point in building the rest of the engine to go much past 5500-6000. So I specced it accordingly.

Plus I like not having to adjust lash, ever.

JMH(AB)O

[decooney]

Hi Jamo,
...just curious about something on a side note. When you installed/removed your distibutor -at any time- did it drop in and pop out pretty easy? ...Do you recall if you had to give it a firm tug to remove it the first 1/2 inch?

...please send a PM if you'd prefer. I was helping a friend with a Shelby block a while back and have wondered about something; whether anyone thinks its related or not. Thanks.

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by Hotfingrs


Better check out page 110 of Crower catalog...their High Pressure Pin Oiling....and they have had that a heck of a lot longer than Jesel

Ohhhh that Crower... wouldn't you know...

What I ment to say is the Jesel has little tiny oil pumps in each lifter body... well... that would be a big fib

Thanks for the info. Wtih a name like HIPPO you'd think I'd know about it.

And they even make them for Fords, what a concept!

Thanks,
Mike

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by Jamo



Sizzler...found the quote...it's from Chevy Hi performance. No question about it, pressed in gears are avaiable for Chevys and Ford SB and possibly for truck/bus/station wagon motors (429/460) [hehehe...], but I've yet to come across them for FEs.

Crane makes them, I know for sure, for the FE. Small base circle blank, iron gears.

[Jamo]

Thanks Wilf...despite assurances my motor will wind thousands higher, I keep a 6k chip in the MSD...simply don't need more. So, your observations make sense.

decooney...nope. Distributor comes out nicely...centered. Others have thought that might be a place to look as well. Thanks.

Sizzler...I'll check it out then.

[SFfiredog]

During the duration of this post, I have developed, fabricated, and tested a new computer controlled electro-hydro-pneumatic
valvetrain and distributorless ignition for the FE.
It all fits under the stock valve covers and runs off 2 AA batteries that last for 5 years. The timing events are infinitley variable and controlled via a single, tiny dash-mounted knob. Power levels are adjustable from 200 to 800 hp with a simple turn.
Gas milage has been increased to 45 mpg and it already has a California EO certification.
And to top it off the State of California has granted registration immunity and has waived the 500 car limit for any Cobra with this system.
The best news is due to out-sourcing and overseas production The price for this system is only $29.95. But wait, the first 50 buyers will have the oppertunity to puchase a 2nd system for only $19.95 and I'll even throw in a handy wire stripper just for calling.

Orders are filling fast, so call now 1 (800) 373-2666, that's 1 8-0-0
D-R-E-A-M-N-N
Offer void in months ending in the letters "h,y,e,l,t, or r"
or days ending in the letter "y"

[Jamo]

Damn it...I really hate AA batteries.

[Ron61]

Convert it to run off 9 volt batteries and I may order a couple as I have a pile of 9 volt battries here just laying and going dead. Opps, I forgot, 9 volts is probably above the approved level.

Ron