FE DYNO #s and Cam Selection

[SFfiredog]

Ken,
The engine builder might not be a dummy, my poor choice of words.
But, after reading your own comments about his defensiveness regarding the detonation issue and the, "you come to me for a street engine and now you want a race engine"line, if he isn't a dummy he has a bad attitiude and doesn't deserve your business.
If he feels your horsepower numbers are acceptable then the only thing he has "accomplished" is to make a 454ci 427 run about as well as a mild 351 W. That accomplishment is nothing to be proud of.
I still want to know how he ran a hydraulic cam in a solid lifter only block without a bunch of machine work.
--Mike

Originally posted by Shelbytexas


I spoke to Kieth Craft, and I suppose MidOHasp was right on the money.
First to say, the engine builder is no dummy - he is quite accomplished; 300 rwh just shocks me.
Kieth was quite politically correct and prefferred not to talk about the problem, but to address possible solutions.
Kieth says go with a hydrolic roller cam around .600 lift and from 235 to 250 duration. CNC the heads, add the roller lifters and stronger springs and I should easily be above the 400 rwh numbers.
He believes he can get enough vaccuum to run power brakes. Hope so, as the car is otherwise 99% original...
Thanks for all the help. Any thoughts on the vaccuum issue would still be appreciated.
Ken

[RICK LAKE]

Clois H Clois if you want stronger brakes go larger. I am not sure what you are looking for. If it is power brakes, 2 thoughts Go hydroboost which would require a power steering pump to take the place or the booster. The other is power master makes an electric brake master kit. If you want to run a vaccum booster make sure it is a DUAL diaphragm one. it is smaller than the single bigger ones. Hope to see you at R&G this year. Hey no 3 gear take offs They are a little tough on the drivetrain Rick Lake

[CSX 4027]

I would not hazard a guess as to what might actually be the issue here until a thorough examination of the build was disected. I mean tear down. Only then will you know the true answer. I have seen the best engine builders make mistakes. It happens but, I am not saying that is the case. You need to look beyond the Monday morning type quarterbacks.
Isn't that why we have MRI's for people?

[Shelbytexas]

SFFiredog - you are right on the money. Bad attitude, and he honestly believes that the 300 hp number is not that bad. All the more reason to move on...

CSX 4027 -
I am going to take the heads off, and therefore the engine apart. I'm guessing you think there is a problem, above and beyond the "small" (but considerably more than stock) cam... once again, shouldn't this combination with this cam and $14,000 produce more than 300 rwh? And I am a little worried about all these vaccuum canistors around the engine compartment in a very stock looking GT 500 Convert....

Thanks!
Ken

[Excaliber]

Rule of thumb for me is:

One h.p. per cubic inch is standard operating procedure. Any builder that can't reach that goal with a streetable engine has missed the mark beg time.

Yo Clois,,,, what ET were you running with those 3rd gear clutch burning runs? I'm really interested because of the high gear ratio I run in the ERA.

3.31 rear with a trans 2.31 1st gear (close ratio top loader). End result is 60+mph in first gear. Despite that (or because of it?) I run 11.90 at 121.27 mph with a 2.0 60 ft time.

...and now back to our low h.p. program.

[Shelbytexas]

Excaliber: Hp at the rear wheels per CI in a car that can support power brakes - What say you?

[Excaliber]

Not rear wheel horse, engine horse. On an ERA with Jag IRS figure 12% drive train loss, LESS for a live axle like I THINK were talking about here. Any yes, STILL enough vacuum for power brakes (just drive faster, ).

12% of 454 = 54 Perhaps 10% with a straight axle, 45 horse?
385 horse falls short, but not by "that much"? Hey, is this GT-500 running an automatic trans?

[Shelbytexas]

4 spd.
toploader
9 inch rear end 31 spline

[CSX 4027]

Cam = a calculation of user considered drivability &
head design/flow
How come we do not know the CC of the heads or the flow numbers yet?
Out of the box means nothing. I have seen parts out of the box that needed to go back in the box.
And yes, with big name manufacturers.
We don't know how port matched the components are.
We don't know the rod length.
We don't know if the piston is in or out of the hole.
We don't know if one bank has taller deck than the other.
We don't know if the carb is worth a fart
We don't have a dyno sheet to show all the values
Actually, we know very little about this motor, don't we?

[CSX 4027]

And What Rocker Ratio?

[MidOHasp]

First of all, "out of the box" for edelbrock heads is nothing worth getting excited about - I agree w/ Steve. Those are not ported or polished. Get those heads up on Keith's bench whether you believe his numbers or not, the guy does great head work. Hell, I could take those heads and a die grinder and some sand paper and probably get 20-30 HP out of them.

I'm just a nobody smallblock guy but I've spent a lot of time running many combinations through computer and real dyno's. Someone I met at the Spring Fling has a 427 Windsor with 12.5:1 compression and a BIG solid roller cam. I have a 407 Windsor with 10.25:1 and a smaller hydraulic cam. Guess what....we have the same horsepower and he has a little less torque. Why? Big Vic Jr. heads not great for torque. Non-ported big Vic Jr. heads also not that great for high HP! My AFR 185cc heads "out of the box" are already top notch heads. If he port matched and polished those heads, something like a KC Stage 2 job, he'd blow me away. Period.

Out of the box to me means needs work. unless it is an expensive box.

Sounds like Keith is going to set you up nice. Let us know how it goes. Glad to hear I'm thinking similarly to the guy that seems to bug everyone with making "the most power".....LOL

[CSX 4027]

Hey, Do you know for sure that the secondarys are opening?

[MidOHasp]

[CSX 4027]

How about this...How About the cam degree story.. Your engine could be off a tooth

[Excaliber]

I'd trust AFR heads to be GREAT right "out of the box"! They don't come any better unless someone has done custom work on them.

[Shelbytexas]

Great ideas - it is running almost exactly like the secondaries are not opening. It is a mechanical 750 from DaVinci - I will have this checked.

4027 had some great comments - we know very little here. I was hoping not to have to take the engine out. I am going to send the heads to kieth, but we should check compression first ( can we do this without the motor running - just turning it over?), then check the carb and valvetrain geometry (per Kieth) / etc.

I am sure it would be smarter to send the whole thing to Arkadelphia, but Kieth did not suggest this, and it could really be getting expensive!

Can the intake be port matched while the engine is in the car?

I appreciate all the critiques / questions, as I have a lot more to ask before this gets done.

I will go check the carb first.

Ken

[Cracker]

Regarding your last question about port matching, yes, but you need to send the intake with the heads. It might be slightly off based on how the head sits on the block but the difference would be unnoticeable.

[Excaliber]

A compression check is always done with the engine NOT running. Pull all the plugs, open wide the throttle and take a compression reading. The tricky part is knowing what to look for and how to interpret the results on the test.


Note the number of cranks or "time" it took to reach full compression per cyl. The first "hit" should make the pressure gauge really move up the scale. Then additional compression strokes will build the final pressure up to max fairly quickly. All cylinders should be within 15% of each other, being a new engine I'd be tempted to say 10%. The total amount of pressure per cyl is still going to be hard to interpret, so many variables regarding cam shaft, etc. It's not really a reflection of "compression ratio" per se.

I recently tested my 427. 230-240 psi per cyl. 12.5 to 1 Compression.

[RedCSX1]

Remember you will lose 100 HP through the restrictive side exhaust. Did you have the aire cleaner on it when you dynoed it?
THe cam is too mild for the motor you built. My 427 (stock stroke) has 242and 242@ 50 with 590 lift . Put out 493HP and 539 ft. pounds of torque at 6200 rpms on the engine dyno. My valves in the edlebrocks are 2.19 and 1.75. and the heads are ported with bowl work.

morgan

[Excaliber]

Hey Red, now that you mention it. My motor looses 96 h.p. with the side pipes on. At the drag strip when I run the shorties I can FEEL the increase in power.