FE DYNO #s and Cam Selection

[Shelbytexas]

Please help with any comments:

I just Dyno'ed my 427 stroker (428 Crank). Torgue: 385 HP: 294 at 5200 rpm.
$14,000 later, I am very dissapointed, as some might imagine. Here are the stats:

65 427 center oiler block, .030 over
Edelbrock Alum heads out of the box, installed
2.19 / 1.75 valves
Police interceptor Alum. Intake
DaVinci 850 Carb
Harlan Sharp Roller Rockers
Hooker Headers
2.5 inch exhaust
Flowmaster mufflers

Timing was set at 10 initial, 36 total

To be fair, I told my engine builder that I wanted the most HP without a crazed idle; I am running power breaks, so need enough vaccuum.

The CAM I went with was the Extreme Energy Cam with around .565 lift and 230 dg duration @.050. It is Hydrolic. Comp Cams does NOT make a roller cam for the FE.

Questions: Shouldn't this combo produce substantially more HP? (Engine builder says this is reasonable and to quit reading the comic books).
What the most HP I should be able to get (AND HOW DO YOU DO IT KEEPING IT STREETABLE) in this 454?

Thanks!

[marcocsx3121]

I assume those numbers are at the rear wheels, but they're still pretty shocking for what you have as an engine. Have you rechecked the obvious items such as timing and compression? Was the cam degreed when installed? Something basic has to be wrong: I've seen Honda Civics with bolt on turbo sysytems run close to 300 HP at the wheels. A realistic goal with your combo would be at least 400 RWHP. Your engine guy is the one reading the comic bboks.

[427Aggie]

I believe I just met this car...haven't met the owner yet

Is this the car thats over at Keith Craft Motorsports and Rob was going to tune on it? Nice car...you are going to have to hang out with SCAT and we may let you come around the Cobra Bunch

My 427 .22 over with standard crank does 380/420 at the rear wheels and I just have the edelbrock heads bolted directly on..I know Keith can probably get me about 40 more horse out of it.

Well I hope I meet you at the shop sometime.

Matt

[Clois Harlan]

I am getting a lot more horsepower and I spent less than a third of the money you spent.

428 bored .030
Comp Cams solid lifter Cam 592 lift 235 duration @ .50
TRW 10.5 : 1 forged pistons and rods
Clevite Bearings
Sig Erson Adjustable 1.6 Roller Rockers
Smith push rods
Comp Cam specific matched springs
Edelbrock Alum Heads (messaged a little)
Completely balanced
Ford Alum Medium Riser Manifold
Speed Demon 750 Carb
MSD 6AL
MSD Billet Distributor (10 deg initial all in by 33 deg)
McLeod Alum Flywheel
Aeromotive Fuel Pump w/ regulator
Stock Unequal length Cobra headers

Plus a few other little little things here and there but I am getting over 400 hp and 400 +lbs torque @ 6200 RPM at the rear wheels with this set up using Royal Purple racing oil.

Clois

[Jim Downard]

As torque and hp curves intersect at 5250 rpm, it seems strange that the hp and torque values are so far apart at only 5200 rpm. Something screwy has happened here. Either the hp is closer to 385 hp or the torque is closer to 290 hp. I'll bet it's the 385 hp number that's more accurate. I have a 393 windsor that's fairly mild making 360 hp at the rear wheels. Look at the hp and torque curves again and check the numbers on it.

Jim Downard

[Shelbytexas]

You are correct:

Per the dyno sheat:
Top HP was 301 on the 2nd run at 5200 rpm. Peak Torque was 385 at 3200 rpm

[Jim Downard]

Never did hear if this was a chasis dyno at the rear wheels or if it was an engine dyno. I hope, after seeing those numbers, they're at least rear wheel hp. In any case, something isn't right. That thing is anemic. Are the valves adjusted correctly. Is the cam degreed correctly. Is there a rag stuffed into the intake manifold. My small block 393 is making 398 ft. lb. of torque from 3250 rpm up to 4750 rpm +/-. Did you buy the cam, or did the engine builder supply it with the build. If you bought it, you'll definitly know about the lift and duration. I originally bought my motor and it wasn't supplied with the cam that was specified, but it's got a good one now. It really sounds valvetrain related to me, but heck, what do I know. An engine is really nothing more than an air pump.

Jim Downard

[Shelbytexas]

Jim:
Thanks. Rear wheel horsepower. Sorry for the delay. The engine blew a head gasket on the dyno after 500 miles of VERY careful break - in. The engine was dieseling some, and I hear this could be the cause. When I took the car to Kieth Craft to investigate what was going on (TO BE CLEAR< KIETH DID NOT BUILD THE ENGINE THE FIRST TIME), the engine was at 10 degrees initial with 26 degrees all in. The engine builder says that this can't be - it wasn't dieseling when he sent it to me, and I must be lying - it can't diesel with this timing;, and that he can't control what goes on in someone else's dyno session (I can hardly blame the latter, but the Kieth Craft guys are pretty careful).

Worse, the engine builder now claims "I came to him wanting a street car, and now I want a race car". But can't you have a nice street car that's FAST with a 427 stroked to 454? AND - HOW DO YOU DO IT?

Once again, any help in this disaster would be appreciated!!!

[Clois Harlan]

I don't think you are asking for too much. Talk to John Ross in Plano he has a beautiful set up and he runs his 427 on the street all the time. I think he is probably running about 600 hp.


The guys at Keith Kraft have built some very impressive engines and I was really surprised with your initial post. I mistakenly thought they had built your engine.


Clois

[Shelbytexas]

Clois - How do I get in touch with this guy? Thanks.

By the way, since it seems you know your way around a little, what is the most CAM you would put in this car, considering it needs to be drivable, and not sound "goofy"? It is a four spped car, once again with power brakes.

Thanks for your help.
Ken

[marcocsx3121]

Don't be afraid of putting a real cam in that motor. With 454 CID and a light car, loss of low end power will not be an issue, and a nasty idle is part of the wonderful Cobra symphony. CSX3121 had only 427 inches and I ran a flat tappet cam that Crane described as "marginally streetable" without any difficulty at all.

[SFfiredog]

my first question is unless someone did a bunch of machine work and converted your block you cannot put a hydraulic cam in a '65 center oiler 427 block.
The guy that built the engine sounds like a dummy.
Keith Craft sould be able to fix you up.
--Mike

[Clois Harlan]

John usually post on the Texas Cobra Club pages but here is his email address:

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/memb...m&userid=10797

[BB427]

Shelbytexas,

On your cam question, I have a .060 over 390 (402) and my cam is a Comp solid. .651 lift, 260 dur. @ .050, on a 110 center installed at 106. I ran a cam larger than yours in my truck.

I do not think the cam is your problem though unless he installed it wrong.

Your timing needs to total closer to 36 or 38 for power. If you have an MSD dist you can change the bushing to achieve diff. initial settings.

[Shelbytexas]

How drivable is your cam re: idle/overheating/noise/etc?
Ken

[MidOHasp]

Cam may not be the only problem but it sure is a problem. Very small cam!

Also, what was the compression supposed to be? FE's like compression, although they can make good power without it. But if you are running 9 to 9.5, don't just make the cam change. You will have to increase compression as well.

Timing is way low, too, it sounds like.

Just sounds like a bunch of parts thrown at a block in an effort to make some nice streetable power. What you got was none of that.

Run 10:1 w/ aluminum heads, pump gas OK. .600" lift and 250 degres duration @.050" lift. Set total timing to 34 degrees (give or take), put it all back together, and you should add 75-85 horsepower. Have Keith do your heads and you will be putting down well over 400 at the rear wheels.

[Clois Harlan]

It is my understanding that if you keep your duration as close to 225 as you can the more vacuum you will make. However, you can run a remote vacuum canister with a little more duration. As I said I am running 232 duration and a 592 lift on my cam and I make enought vacuum (with a canister) to run power brakes, I just don't have any room for the setup.

I really like the rumpty rump my engine makes as well as the instant power when I want it. Lunati makes a real nice hydraulic cam setup that is just a step above the "Recommended cam" for Edelbrock heads and Performer RPM manifold. Cost is around $200 with lifters and your Edelbrock springs will probably be alright. If you go up to a higher lift cam (closer to .600) you will definitely need to change out the springs on your Edelbrock heads.

Just a side note here: I run a MSD shift light in conjunction with my MSD 6AL box. I run a 6400 RPM Chip in my box and a my shift light flashes at 6100 RPMS (sometimes when you are in a race you could forget to shift if things get a little hairy without a little shift light to remind you).

[JRoss]

ShelbyTexas - Ken was able to get ahold of me. We just had a nice little talk over lunch.

There is definitly a problem with that motor that nees to be found before he starts making changes. His motor should be making much more power. As a comparison I have run two different motors on the same dyno Ken just ran on. The first was a mostly stock 428 with a hydrolic cam just a little bigger than his and a bad hand porting job on edelbrock heads. that motor made 345hp and 410tq. Kens motor should be able to do a lot better.

The second motor I ran on that dyno is my current Keith Craft 427 and it made 511hp and 504 tq. I would expect Ken's motor to be about in the middle of these two making between 400+ at the rear wheels.

Ken, you may want to consider having Keith go through you motor to find the problem and then go for his stage II porting on the heads and have him match a cam for you. You should have a very sweet motor.

Good luck
John

[DuckRyder]

Just a point, his sign on says:

"Cobra Make & Engine: GT 500 Convert / 4 spd"

Which "light car" is probably not a completely acurate description of.

Although I do agree the cam is small, particularly for the cubes.

My 360 truck had about the same size cam, and the new one for the 390 is a good bit bigger (238/248)

[Shelbytexas]

I spoke to Kieth Craft, and I suppose MidOHasp was right on the money.
First to say, the engine builder is no dummy - he is quite accomplished; 300 rwh just shocks me.
Kieth was quite politically correct and prefferred not to talk about the problem, but to address possible solutions.
Kieth says go with a hydrolic roller cam around .600 lift and from 235 to 250 duration. CNC the heads, add the roller lifters and stronger springs and I should easily be above the 400 rwh numbers.
He believes he can get enough vaccuum to run power brakes. Hope so, as the car is otherwise 99% original...
Thanks for all the help. Any thoughts on the vaccuum issue would still be appreciated.
Ken