427 FE dumps roller lifter and eats camshaft

[Excaliber]

Thats good news Ron, I been doing some reading on combustion chamber CC's and it appears that even a small change in chamber size has an immediate impact on C.R. As little as 8-10 cc can lower (or raise) C.R. by a half a point. Therefor, I think there it IS a good idea to have my existing "Ross", forged race popup pistons milled to flat tops. Those Ross pistons are about a $100 per, with no pin, rings or retainers!

Heres a pic of the USED TO BE "round" roller that broke off the roller lifter. It appears the roller quit turning and the cam lobe flattened it out on a couple of sides. It got so thin, it broke through! Standard thinking is the roller lacks oil, overheats and "fails". Apparently "faliure" amounts to "quits spinning". This was a roller bearing supported roller, by the way.

[Ron61]

Ernie,

That roller is a mess. You are fortunate that you didn't have more problems, but I think you are right about the engine having been neglected and that .040 lash being the start of the problem. I know there are many arguments both for and against roller lifters and I stayed with the flat tappet as the engine builder that did mine said he just doesn't like to put them in engines that are mostly going to be street driven. His statement was he gets the race engines back after a few races to go completely through and he finds some signs of damage even on them. After much discussen in 96 with the engine builedr in Ohio that built my stroker, he suggested I go with roller rockers and Hi Performance hydraulic lifters that are good up to 7500 RPM. Since my engine makes its power between 5800 and 6200 I don't have to worry about valve lash adjustment with the hydraulics and I have turned them 7000 a time or two. Have to get the rev limiter set to around 6300. But you will get more power with the solids, and that is what you are looking for. Hope that you have the beast running soon.

Ron

[Excaliber]

I seriously considered roller hydraulic lifters as my late model 427 side oiler block IS drilled for hydro's. I get the impression those late model side oiler blocks are called "juice blocks".

Anyway, my gawd man, I about fell over when I saw the price of hydraulic rollers. Those things gold plated or something? MOST expensive lifter a guy can buy!

My "Ross" pistons also appear to carry a high price tag also, higher than any other piston I checked. I'll be keeping those!

[ItBites]

Ernie,

Been watching your posts a while. Take some advice or you'll end up with so much lower HP than you're used to that you'll be very unhappy.

Get the hyd roller cam!

I'll say it again, in case you weren't listening:

GET THE HYD ROLLER CAM!!!

Solid flat tappets are for high RPM, where you say you're trying to stay away from... WTF are you thinking, over?

Use the agressive ramp on the hyd roller to fill and evacuate the cylinder (remember its about area under the curve) and you will still have good power. Also no lash worries. I have a hyd roller in my Vette (the Cobra is a much nastier, high RPM, solid-roller cammed, 12.5:1 motor - that needs TLC and maintenance on a regular basis). The hyd roller in the Vette has been there for 13 years (50000 mi) or so. I have changed valve springs twice as PM and adjust the valves only at those times.

Do something like this:
Get CR to about 10.0:1
Get hyd roller cam with ~.600 - .640 lift
Get hyd roller cam with 112-114 (wide) lobe centers
Get hyd roller cam with ~230 deg duration at .050
Cam should be assymetric - talk to cam suppliers.

This combo will fill the cylinders nicely at 6000 RPM due to decent lift, even with short duration.

This combo will fool the motor into thinking it is higher CR due to low duration and wide lobe separation (high dynamic pressure created).

The Vette is about 4000lb and I run 12.4 @ 115mph at 1200 ft altitude with a similar combo (as driven around - if tuned well, it'll run faster).

Done right, you may not lose much power at all and may have more HP/torque at lower RPMs than now. which may get more area under the HP curve to the track by allowing you to get into the next gears sooner. Understand that the more HP curves you can go through in the 1/4 mile, the quicker you'll be (power=work/time).

Good Luck!

[MidOHasp]

Mr. Wood,

Excellent info.

People often forget that the CR usually quoted is a static number that does not account for cam overlap.

Running the big lift and shorter duration with the wide lobe sep will keep the stuff in there a little better for "squish"...

Ernie, keep us posted!!

[Excaliber]

Ha ha,,,, I should have known when I opened the FE can of worms. There is NO WAY to "freshen" one of THESE motors without spending big bucks!

I was just going to replace the existing cam with the same model. Nah, I should go a little with a little less I thought. Well, I need to reduce the heavy valve springs so I should pull the heads and check 'em out. Well,,,,, now that I got the heads off, maybe I'll just look in the pan and see how things are in there.

...be a piece of cake to pop out a piston, you know, now that I got the pan off and all.

"Ross" custom pistons, quoted a $1000 today. Roller Hydraulics, $800 easy. Cam, lifters, springs, etc. Yup, I'm gonna need Master Card!

[ItBites]

Ernie,

Since you're thinkin has been calibrated at this point, do the following:

Call several cam folks and give tell them you're looking for a roller hyd, short duration with wide lober center and big lift in order to work with about 10:1 CR and see what they suggest for the cams and exact compression before you order the pistons. Give them the numbers I gave you for a starting point and I think they can set you up nicely...

I got mine from Crane and have not had any lifter problems, but its not an FE (?).

Keep us posted.

[Anthony]

Crane makes what I think is a good hydraulic roller cam, the more radical of the several they list, should be fine for your wants.
This would be the one I would pick.

Here it is:

Part Number: 349541 Grind Number: HR-238/359-2S-12
Engine Identification:
Start Yr. End Yr. Make Cyl Description
1963 1976 FORD-MERCURY 8 ROUGH IDLE, PERFORMANCE USAGE, GOOD MID-RANGE HP, MILD BRACKET RACING, AUTO TRANS W/2500+ CONVERTER, 3600-4200 CRUISE RPM, 10.0 TO 11.5 COMPRESSION RATIO ADVISED. BASIC RPM 3000-6500
Engine Size Configuration
352-428 C.I. V

Valve Setting: Intake .000 Exhaust .000 HOT

Lift: Intake @Cam 359 @Valve 632 All Lifts are based
on zero lash and theoretical rocker arm ratios.
Exhaust @ Cam 372 @Valve 655
Rocker Arm Ratio 1.76

Cam Timing: TAPPET @.004
Lift: Opens Closes ADV Duration
Intake 39.0 BTDC 81.0 ABDC 300.0 °
Exhaust 87.0 BBDC 41.0 ATDC 308.0 °

Spring Requirements: Triple Dual Outer Inner
Part Number 99893
Loads Closed 120 LBS @ 1.875 or 1 7/8
Open 360 LBS @ 1.255
Recommended RPM range with matching components
Minimum RPM 3200
Maximum RPM 6700
Valve Float 7000

Cam Timing: TAPPET @.050
Lift: Opens Closes Max Lift Duration
Intake 12.0 BTDC 46.0 ABDC 107 238.0 °
Exhaust 60.0 BBDC 6.0 ATDC 117 246.0 °

[Excaliber]

After giving it some serious thought I am going with a solid lifter flat tappet cam. My cruising rpm is about 2800 with the gears and tire size I have. I'm looking for a LOT of low end torque. Bear in mind it's rare to "cruise" in Hawaii at 55 or 60 for very long. And even more rare to exceed 60 or so except for VERY short distances. So cruise rpm is the biggest issue (1st gear, Waikiki, all them tourists covered with oil).

Our road race track is SHORT and twisty. I have fairly high trans gearing and 3:31 rear gear. 1st gear is good to 65 mph. I GOT to have serious bottom end to come off those corners with that gearing. I'm thinking "short oval track" application for the cam.

The drag race thing was "cool", but I'm over that. I'm a road racer not a dragster. Can't see where the extra money (a LOT more) for hyd rollers would be a good cost/benefit analysis for THIS build. I'm thinking 2500 to 6000 rpm range with a "red line" of 6500 or 7000 at the top end.

Chris at Shelby American in L.A. will be fabricating custom pistons. Shooting for 10 to 11 C.R.

Think "cam kit", like Geroge at Gessford sales. Cam, springs, timing chain and gear, keepers, shims, etc. The whole ball of wax matching components.

Federal Mogul rod bearings for my 428SCJ rods (.020). What else am I missing?

[ItBites]

Ernie, Ernie, Ernie,

I am trying to talk you out of the flat tappet solid cam specifically to get you low RPM grunt.

I told you about my 12 sec Vette. What I forgot to add is that I do a 12.4 all day long in a bad tune, shifting at 5800 rpm. I could rev it to 6300 or so (cam card says redline is 6500), but why when I'm already 12.4 sec in a 4000 lb pig of a car... It has so much torque at 2500 rpm you can't keep the tires under it.

If you want low RPM grunt get the hydraulic roller cam. you can get more lift thru the cam profile with less duration and overlap (think low RPM grunt here). Think truck cam with max torque, but also huge power due to big lift.

Also consider this: You can get a hydraulic flat tappet with the same ramps as the solid, it just won't wind over 6500 rpm. That is the only reason flat solid cams were ever produced (high rpm stuff). You're now saying you want low rpm usage, but you're going to a high rpm cam (???)

Did I mention I shift my hyd roller motor at 5800 rpm? Hyd roller cams are all about low rpm grunt if you keep duration short and separation wide. They are especially good if you're not going to run big CR.

Please think about this again. I'm trying to help you here. You seem like a nice guy and I really liked it when you bought this car and actually raced it. You may think my advice is not good since I don't build Fords, but as far as cam science goes, engines are pretty similar - and I have suggested you call the cam guys for the specifics that may be related to head design, but if you take my general advice on approx lift, duration, and separation, you will have huge torque, response and power without having to wing the rpms.

BTW, the cam recommended above by Anthony has more duration than I would recommend and not as much separation as I'd recommend either. Also do not go for the triple springs. Triples rub during actuation and will build too much heat and will fail. Crane originally spec'd triples for my cam and I changed to doubles and now Crane spec's doubles for my cam too (they learned about 8 years after I told them).

I'll cross my fingers for you. BTW, I'll mind my own business if you want, I just get the feeling you're gonna be less happy than you could be.

[Excaliber]

I DO appreciate the feedback, nothing is written in stone yet! One reason the roller solid cam is out is because of the triple springs and extreme valve pressures as a result.

Longevity is also the goal. I tend to put a lot of miles on my Cobras.

[Keithc8]

I agree with E. Wood, go with the hydraulic roller and use the current technology that is available. You can install a smaller camshaft and fill the cylinders more because of the rate of opening and closing you have with the roller provile. You will also be able to run more lift and make more torque and HP. What i like is the fact that you do not have to worry about eating a cam lobe during break-in and pull the engine all back apart. Just my thoughts. Good luck, Keith C

[Excaliber]

Roller lifters,,,,, BIG money.

Not eating a canshaft during breakin,,,,,, priceless!

SO,,,, looking for a cam "kit", cam, lifters, springs, shims, retainers, double cam gear and chain (thats what it had before) and whatever else or less comes with such a "kit".

Working rpm range 2500 to 6000. Cruising rpm range of 2500 to 2800, redline 6500 (for those "missed shifts").

1964 iron Hi riser heads, 2.18 intake valves, 73 cc combustion chambers. On top will be a Ford OEM 1964 2X4 600 cfm per Holley carb (1200 cfm total), vac secondarys. I love the original aspect of the heads and 2X4 so they WILL be staying! OH, 428 crank and .017 over bore.

Having custom pistons made, so what kind of C.R. you guys think? 92 octane pump gas is all I can get here.

Kinda cool, a Club Cobra built 427 FE!

[ItBites]

Good man Ernie....

Also stay away from triple springs. Someone out there will have what you need with a double spring recommendation. Or you can get the recommended open/closed force and go to another manufacturer for the springs like I did for several years when Crane wanted me to use triples.

Call Crane and Comp...

Do not use the triples.

[Ron61]

ItBites,

No argument at all with what you posted. Only I have a flat tappet hydraulic cam in my engine and it will wind to 7000 in a heartbeat. The engine builder said these type hydraulic lifters are good to 7500, but my horsepower on the dyno was at 6100, so no reason to go over that. The 7000 was when I hit a spot of oil on the pavement in 2nd gear while pulling hard and before I could get out of the throttle it pegged my tach. I only have a 7000 tach as I never wind the engine over 6100, and try to shift at about 5700. I am running 3:27 gears and 1st and 2nd are almost worthless even with my SMALL BLOCK. The torque is really something. I emphasize SMALL BLOCK because Ernie has went over to the BIG BLOCK side.

Ron

[Chaplin]

ItBites or Keith-
What cam specs would you suggest that Ernie use? The reason I ask is that I am thinking about a cam swap and will have the same basic use as Ernie- mostly cruising in the 25-3500 range- and I am not happy with the cam I have now.

Right now, I have a 428 with a comp cam 292H cam (244/244 and .560). My general complaints with this cam is that it doesn't seem to have enough grunt down low, and not enough hp up top given the size of the cam- on chassis dyno peak hp was at 5200. And I would also like a somewhat smoother idle. Would a hydraulic roller work well for this application? What mods, if any, would I need to do to run a hyd roller? Cam suggestions?

[ItBites]

Chaplin,

This is from my post on page 3 of this thread (look back there for more details):

Do something like this:
Get CR to about 10.0:1
Get hyd roller cam with ~.600 - .640 lift
Get hyd roller cam with 112-114 (wide) lobe centers
Get hyd roller cam with ~230 deg duration at .050
Cam should be assymetric - talk to cam suppliers.


I build chevys, so I would not want to make specific recommendations since Ford heads will require somewhat different assymetric profiles.

I can tell you the short duration with wade separation will give decent idle and low rpm torque characteristics (short overlap), while the big lift will still allow you to make good power.

You will need to be careful of valve/piston clearance at these lift values, but the shorter duration will help.

Keith may be hesitant to make a recommendation since he makes his living off his magic methods of getting good HP, but my numbers are pretty good generically, or he would not have had any agreement with a chevy guy.

Talk to the Cam people for specific recommendations, but give them my number as a start point and let them know you want the short duration and wide lobe center angle along with big lift in order to work with moderate compression. They will steer from there.

Good Luck

[Keithc8]

A couple of things about camshafts and the cars the engines will be used in. The Cobra can run a little bigger camshaft than say a full size car, so keep this in mind. I feel that on most of the engines in the 427 to 440 C.I. range a camshaft with 236 at .050 intake and about 244 at .050 exhaust is a good start with a 112 lobe seperation. Install the camshft 4 degrees advanced. The lift will be in the .590 to .610 lift range. There are also different lobes available with the same .050 advertised duration but some will work better with the heavier FE valves. We have also used a 242/248 camshaft with good success as well if you want to go to the more aggressive side. In the larger stroker engine we will run cams even bigger than this.
Also do not pay that much for a set of pistons, we can get you some nice Diamond or JE for much less than that[550.00 to 650.00]. Let me know if we can help in any way. Thanks Keith C

[RICK LAKE]

Excaliber I don't know where you are on the engine buildup but Hot Rod has an article about new head gaskets that can drop your compression with out a piston change. They are thicker. I am sure they are not cheap but cheaper than pistons. Just a thought. Some thing to look at. Rick Lake

[Excaliber]

At 12.5 to 1 in order to get to 9.5 to 1 (or so) I'll need more than head gaskets.

Business has been good lately, I haven't had time to do much on it yet.