Mechanical Rooler Lifters

[Hotfingrs]

As for what Top Fuel/Funny cars use as some point of reference. Whenever you make an association like that, you fail to take into consideration that they are torn down between each 1/4 mile run and inspected and anything that needs replaced is.If that's tha kind of maintenance you wish to perform, then make sure you use all the pieces they do. You might also want to get a Sponsor, because the price will start adding up,quickly. I use Top Fuel/Funny car parts as reference for building a Top Fuel or Funny car,not a reliable street engine

What an assinine statement, there isn't anyone on this forum that hasn't used a race part on the street, or used a part because someone else reccomended it. If it wasn't for some form of advertising or reccomendation, most people wouldn't know which direction to turn. If only 1/4 milers are using the part, then I guess you'll have to replace the part every 1/4 mile, bull, my lifters have been in the car for 3-4000 miles, and never had to be adjusted after initial install. I've spent countless hours on the phone talking to different companies to gather the information I have. I fellow forum member asks for a reccomendation, and other forum members try to save him some time and money by passing on info they have gleaned through the years....then someone, who has nothing to contribute to this thread, comes up with the brilliant statement above.

[Woodz428]

QUOTE]then someone, who has nothing to contribute to this thread, comes up with the brilliant statement above.[/quote]

Thanks for your support. Actually you overlooked the contribution. Someone was concerned about reliabilty issues and I stated that Top Fuel /Funny Cars are a poor representative of what duarable parts are.Frankly,3-4000miles is hardly a record of longevity.Let me know when you get 10-20,000 miles. By the way I have several good friends that can supply you with some of those used Top Fuel/ Funny Car parts, and some of them only a couple miles on them so you'd be set to go. But, since I build cars for people for a living, I have NO desire to build a personal vehicle that may need the kind of maintenance that I hear regularly from some roller cam guys. I think there are several people here like that, you are apparently not one of them.

[dlampe]

As this debate rages forward one question comes to mind. How much HP are we talking about? Is tha cost of the upgrade and the reliability issues worth it? What kind of difference am I going to feel when I hit the gas? I have always heard that the roller really kicks in at higher RPM's and if Clois is only reving to 6500 what difference does a roller make? Surely someone has some real life experience.

[Hotfingrs]

Strange how a lot of parts found on everyday vehicles, started out as race only items.

I have NO desire to build a personal vehicle that may need the kind of maintenance that I hear regularly from some roller cam guys.

I guess if you spend the time and use the right parts, there shouldn't be a maintenance problem. I spent zero time on maintaining my car, other than the usual checking oil etc.etc. With the shaft mounted rockers, never have to worry about adjusting valves. Since you build cars for a living, I would consider it amiss on your part, if you didn't steer customers in the direction of the right parts to use, and quit badmouthing products of which you obviously no nothing about.

[Woodz428]

As I said 3-4000 miles is no durability record. By the way, I have roller cam experience going back as far as 1969 up to today.
I had a Corvair van that I drove from N.J. after I got out of the military in 1973 and put 3-4000 miles on it before the a piston popped the top and several had cracks, I guess I didn't appreciate the longetivity and durabilty that represents,LOL. Go back and read the post again,this time more slowly and possibly with a dictionary, I'm not bad-mouthing anything, just stating that solid rollers don't seem to offer long term durabilty on the street. I also stated that what works for Top Fuel and Funny cars isn't neccesarily "street" equipment, that's all. So go put another 6-7000 miles on that car like I said, then I'll let you tell me ALL about how durable they are. If you go that long without any failures, I'll re-assess my opinion. But a bunch of name calling doesn't alter the fact. I'm expressing my opinion after 35+ years in the business,just an opinion, your's as well is just an opinion. I probably don't have all your experience, but your OPINION seems to run against most I know that have replaced the parts within 5000 miles.I guess your OPINION of durabilty is different as well.

[Hotfingrs]

I guess if you want to evoke military service in a thread, I'll inject mine, after getting out of the military in 1971 after having spent 4 yrs in the service of this country.....you did have it right, my opinion, does run against most that you know, you really should expand your circle of friends. Maybe if you reread my posting you'll see that I said...a lot of parts started out as race only items, are now found as standard on todays cars. Having CompCams lifters last less than 2,000 miles, I would consider 4,000 miles with no wear doin pretty good....don't know about their longevity, but it's certainly better than CompCams.

[Woodz428]

Wasn't intending to envoke military service in a thread, I don't judge people on those grounds, that was the only reason I was in Jersey. It was just a reference for why I was there. I have no arguments about whether one roller is better than another, there are many parts that have one manufacturer producing a better quality part, it's a by-product of a free market. I'll wait for the longevity report at 10,000 miles,like I said. I've run Hilborn injection on the street,while it was fun (a lot of things I thought were fun when I was younger,I don't now), I would never tell anyone I thought it was a good street system. Also fenderwell headers,tilt front end,tunnel ram and a straight axle ('57 Chevy), with 4.88 gears.It ,too, was a blast, I wouldn't suggest to anyone that it was good street set-up. I might build one for a customer, finished a Blown BB '57 Chevy recently, but I do let the customer know what experiences they can expect from a set-up like that.I have no beef with you, how can I, we don't know each other. Once again, all I was doing was expressing that I don't believe that a radical solid roller cam is a good long term street cam. If you're not going radical then the roller is wasted money. I'm glad you like your cam, it's your car, great. Just let me know at 10,000 how it is.

[RICK LAKE]

Clois Harlan Clois have you thought about getting the crank cut for BBC rods? The bearings are wider and may last longer. Dry sump may be needed for your racing. You are running BB perpared. It maybe time for a 500 cid motor that will make more power, less rpm, last longer and a lower gear for those long straights you are talking about. I think a call to Georgia Moon, aka George A is needed. Do you have and accump on your car? I would look into this also. Hotfinger you are running a chevy which have the best oiling system in any motor made. These FE motors have one of the poorest oiling system except or the side oiler. I splash system to oil roller lifters is not for regular driving, we all know this. Some people have luck with parts that are for racing only and drive them on the street for 10K and never have a problem others drive 1K mileage and the motor is trashed. dlampe I don't know why hydro roller lifters, lighter valves, and a 600" cam is not the answer. The beehive comp springs sound good also and rev to 6500 without problems. This is what a am looking hard at. Nobody has said how much more CFM flow is going on from 600 to 700 lift. 20-40 cfm? this is good for nascar or 1/4 racing only wide open throttle. Hows your car doing? I hope Santa gets the parts you need to fix it Have a good holiday

[Clois Harlan]

Ok here is the deal! The Comp Cam shows NO Wear on the lobes or the solid lifters after 4000 miles. I was very happy with my cam setup except at the larger tracks I needed a few more RPM's so my rev limiter doesn't kick in before I am ready to apply my brakes. Probably the most logical answer would be to change out my rear gears for the longer tracks (pumpkins are fairly cheap). The number 1 bearing spun on this block and crank combination twice but it won't happen again.

Rick I have spoken to George and I am going to a 427 bored .030 over and I intend to use a new 428 crank, Eagle rods and light weight forged alum pistons maybe 11 : 1 or more compression. I will be adding an accusump this time even though I think it is just a band aid for some other problem.

Morris, how is the Kirkham coming are you going to be ready for Road America this year? I am sure if you are I will get quite familiar with your rear licence plate.

Clois

[Excaliber]

I do think to big a lash played a part in breaking the roller (hammer effect), but the roller was also "three sided". Three distinct "flat spots". It actually wore through one spot and the roller "broke" into three pieces.

Geroge Anderson, Gessford Machine, made an interesting comment once. He prefers solid flat tappet lifters for longevity. HE runs a roller, but he also noted HE owns a machine shop!

He prefers solids in general over hydraulics. Why? The solids "keep you in touch" with your motor. I can dig it, it DOES give me something positive to do on my motor on occasion, and I like that!

[coyled]

Clois, sound like you have the open track bug. I would have somebody competent put together the motor and dyno it for you. If you do it yourself, have somebody competent walk you through it. You want reliability and longevity. 6500 rpm seems like plenty for a big block. Change gears for the big tracks if you need to. Valve train geometry and lifter issues are complex. Keep it simple if you can. Scott

[Clois Harlan]

Scott,

Good to hear from you. Dean Lampe and I drove over to RK Machine shop (427 Meca, everything you have ever heard about is there....unbelievable) and I bought a 427 S.O. short block standard bore (one sleve), Steel $ crank 10/10, Le Mans rods, Aires flat top pistons for $4000.00. Rick agreed to take it back down and re-check all the tolerances and balance to may satisfaction. I will be bringing my heads and other parts for him to assemble and run in the engine for a minimum of three hours. Then I will load it back up and take back to Tulsa for a DYNO session.

This guy has every Ford Muscle engine you ever imagined in fact he has brand new in the box 427 SOHC heads as well as no less than four 427 SOHC Engines for sale ($20,000.00 for the 2 X 4 Carbed models and $30,000.00 for his blown and injected models). Boss 439's including a one of a kind 3 X 2 set up for a 429. I believe he has no less than 50 427 blocks as well as some of the World Record holder engines that Ford produced. This is a tour anyone near Sillwater, Oklahoma should take. And if you need A N Y FE parts he is the man to call. His name is Rike Kirk and his telephone number is 918-372-4537. He has done proto work for both Ford Racing and GM Racing and he has the proof in his shop.


Clois

[coyled]

Clois, I have been through a number of motor buids and some mistakes along the way. I think you are doing it right. 99% of the time, if there is an assembly or parts problem, you find out on the dyno during the break in process. Once that is done, keep oil in it and have fun as you should have a pretty bullit proof motor. Good luck and I hope to see you at road america next year. Scott

[ItBites]

Hi y'all...

I run two roller cams in BBCs. One is hydraulic (.645, 230). The other is solid (.695,285). The hydraulic has gone over 30000 mi and the solid is over 7000mi.

Crane offers an iron gear option on their steel roller cams and I have it on both mine. This eliminates the dist gear wear problem and does not require the soft bronze dist gear either. As I recall you get it by putting "IG" at the end of the cam number for Iron Gear. You should really consider this gear option from Crane if you go roller.

All y'all have a nice day.

[COBRAMAN 484]

Rick, I don't have any pictures at this time. I can tell you the cam was a fairly tight lash cam .016-.018 custom ground buy comp cams I thnk the springs might have been a little to heavy they were comp cams 952 parcaloy giving me seat pressures of 206 and 530. The roller on #5 exhaust wore off and the roller pin stayed intacked the ears of the lifter did a little machining on the cam. One of the other rollers had numerous flat spots all around it. Most of the other rollers have longtatudinal lines around the roller also with lines around the cam lobes. I ran a roller cam (comp 288r) with their matching springs 929 for 2 years with no problem. When I ordered this cam I sent the lifters to them (the lifters had no signs of wear at all but comp cams said they will start wearing from day one and should be replaced periodicaly depending on driving habits) and had new rollers installed. Oil pressure at cruising speed was a constant 70#. I had about half the miles on this that I had on the other cam when it let go.

COBRAMAN 484

[RICK LAKE]

COBRAMAN 484 Your lashes sound to tight but better than too loose. I would check with the cam company and see which springs they call for. Your seat pressure are too high. The 600" cam I am getting has seat pressure 120 lbs and 350 lbs open with hydro lifters. Valve float is 6500 rpm. If I can get the comp beehive valve springs, they say an extra 500 rpm more. I think the oiling of the roller on the cam is a big problem. The splash way is not working at low rpm or if you have an oil pan that has a windage tray. Some of the solid rollers have grooves that drop the oil right on the contact point of the wheel and cam lobe. If I was building a solid roller motor, a would tap the oiling sysem and make a spray bar spray oil right on the cam and lifter. Idling is what kills these lifters, I would also lighten the valve train if possible, Valves, pushrods, retainers, rockers, going to complete roller rockers with the correct geometery for the rockers to stay centered on the valves. 20 lbs Alum flywheel wouldn't hurt either Itbite I have seen hydro roller lifter with 200k on them and no wear problems. You can't compare a GM motor to an FE. Oiling systems are way different. This is a problem we are trying to get a hand on and fix for future cobra FE builders and owners. Rick Lake