Genesis 427 S/O- Should I be Pleased?

[cbmax]

Just got the initial dyno results back from Joe Lapine at Danbury Competition Engine.

Joe reports 470HP at 5800 RPMS first pull. This was through street legal mufflers, water pump attached and I believe no filter on the carb. He only did one dyno run. He said the weather was rainy and humid and not the best day for making power.

Looks like compression ratio is 10.68 to 1.

Motor has:

Genesis iron block
Bore 4.252
Stroke 4.125
Rod length 6.7
Scatz 4 1/8 crank
Scatz 6.7 H-Beam Rods
Edelbrock alumunium intake manifold and heads with basic port work
Aviaid competition oil pan
Comp cam (solid) 33-246-4
Holley 3310 750CFM Carb
Edelbrock water pump
Wiseco pistons

This is the all the details I have at this point.

So, will I be impressed?

Was hoping for 500 HP. (not sure why, just bragging rights I guess)

Do you think motor will improve with break in? How about when motor is run through open headers when it is installed in my ERA cobra?

What type of performance on the street should I expect?

Thanks for you input!

CB

[2KWIK4U]

cb,

Seems a liitle low but should improve after full break-in and a few tuning pulls. Looks like your at 469 cubes. My KC Genesis made 651 @ 5800 with 496 cu in. through open headers. 470 HP is plenty of HP though in these cars. You'll be pleased.

Brad W.

[What'saCobra?]

Head work might be a little too basic.

Never cared for 3310. Fussy. New Holley HP series much easier to live with, tune and better flow. Much more accurate flow metering at WOT (and lower rpms) and off the line. Bolt on, works perfect. Dual pumper, mechanical secondaries. No problems on street. No choke. That's why we have accelerator pumps.

MSD 6-AL?

Street mufflers? ID?

More than enough HP for an exciting ride, though. Sensible CR. Nice package.

[cbmax]

TTT

[Anthony]

Ask danbury what hp they get from other engines, to give you an idea. Ask them what mods they think will make a difference. They've probably built and dyno'd enough engines to give you good advice.

[cbmax]

Okay thanks.

I'll check on the ignition. Pretty sure it is an MSD.

I'll also look into the carb. The Holley 3310 is no longer made? Looks like these are remanufactured units?

Should I insist on a different carb?

Cost of motor is $14K

[DonC]

CB:
Give the engine a bit to settle in. Joe's HP numbers tend to be on the conservative side.
The 3310 carb is a 4160 (vacume secondaries and center hung float boles) and they're still available from places like Summit. I doubt it is a rebuilt unit but it could be.
When I first spoke to Joe about building my 428 I too told him I wanted 500 at the fly wheel but I also wanted 100,000 miles out of the engine before I would need to do any significant rebuilding. His response was that without adding thousands to the build price that would not be likely. He could have just as easily said yes and billed me as appropriate. I appreciated his candor and told him to go with his best shot at longivity and let the HP fall where it may. His HP numbers came in around 435 with the water pump and mufflers which would be around 450 running without those components attached which is how a lot of the numbers you see are generated.
The Scat crank and rods pretty much bullet proof the bottom end and the rest fall into the "middle of the road" for build components.
As you think about changing or adding bits and pieces keep in mind the HP to longivety balance and go with whatever you think you'll be happy with.
The iginition is in all probablity and MSD 6AL. That's what he uses as standard. MSD distributor as well.
What you use for driveline components will be a big factor in what you get for street performance. In my case a TKO600, 3.07 rear end gearing and 17" wheels and tires will allow me to break the back end loose in 1st or 2nd with snapping the throttle. More than enough for street performance for me. Haven't had a chance yet to put it on the strip of track. That will come this summer (for us in Oregon about 2 weeks in the middle of August). When I get the chance to run it in those venues I'll post with the results.
DonC

[CSX 4027]

With cubes that big and compression that high for the street, it looks like the cam is too small. 248@50 is small. Why an even pattern. We all know the exhaust side of an FE is limited? Even with the Edelelbrock heads. Not enough duration, therefore not enough HP. With that amount of duration, I suspect you might have detonation problems. Not enough to bleed off.
FYI, the first dyno pull is usually right around where the hp will end up. I rarely see 50 hp in the tune of one of these unless there was something drastically wrong like a bad carb, distributor or loosing a cam lobe, etc.

WHAT WAS THE MAX TORQUE?
WHAT RPM DOES JOE FEEL IS MAX?
5800 IS LOW FOR A MAX HP.
DID HE RUN IT UP HIGHER?
WHERE DID IT NOSE OVER?

THE MUFFLERS COULD COST 50+HP.
JUST WAIT TILL YOU PUT THE LITTLE AIR CLEANER ON.
THAT WILL COST 40 TOO.

[cbmax]

TTT

CSX 4027

What makes you say the cam is too small?

I checked a build sheet on Gessford Machine Website for a 427 Shelby block. Cam was 33-245-4 using 4.27 pistons.

By no means do I claim to be a mechanic, so don't take this poorly.

What do you or anyone else suggest I do or ask of my mechaninc to try and hit the 500HP mark w/o spending too much more money (if anything at all)?

I will ask the questions you mentioned below.

[CSX 4027]

Originally posted by cbmax


TTT

CSX 4027

What makes you say the cam is too small?

...Past experience. You have a too long a stroke and too many cubes for 248@50. Call Mile LeFever. Call Dave Dralle. Call Keith Kraft. Call Comp Cams

I checked a build sheet on Gessford Machine Website for a 427 Shelby block. Cam was 33-245-4 using 4.27 pistons.

....And, your point is?

By no means do I claim to be a mechanic, so don't take this poorly.

....I'lll be fine

What do you or anyone else suggest I do or ask of my mechaninc to try and hit the 500HP mark w/o spending too much more money (if anything at all)?

..I would find out the flow numbers on the heads in order to see what they want in a cam along with how you are going to use the car. Some people don't like a really radical idle at over 1000 rpm's. I don't mind it.

You still didn't tell me the torque. I would have thought you would have had that number with the hp. The rest you can ask Joe.
Don't get me wrong, Joe is a good builder and been in it forever but, since engine building is not an exact science, maybe this was just not a front runner for one reason or another. With 427's, the power is made in the heads and cam along with other variables. It's obvious that the cubes and stroke didn't do the trick in this case. Now, you just have to figure out why. I would compare it to a Keith Craft build. He does make a lot of power.

I will ask the questions you mentioned below.

[cbmax]

CSX 4027


I checked a build sheet on Gessford Machine Website for a 427 Shelby block. Cam was 33-245-4 using 4.27 pistons.

....And, your point is? ... George builds $28K motors. Not that money is everything, but thought this might be a good comparison

By no means do I claim to be a mechanic, so don't take this poorly.

....I'lll be fine ....Easy Killer!!!!!!

I'll report back more details tomorrow when I speak with Joe.

[decooney]

CB,
IF you do have the 33-245-4 cam, it is not listed as .248 @ .050 as Steve denotes as beeing "too small". Its a 282S which is 236 @ .050, and a tad smaller even more. I ran this cam in my last car. Its a good cam with a wide power band, not overly radical.

I would guess your results do relate to your existing carb setup combined with mild porting (did that include a port matched intake job?), and the camshaft you are using.

Try changing to a properly jetted HP carb with a little more cfm. and I bet you'll pick up some more HP. Good luck.

Check Here - Is this your Camshaft?

[cbmax]

Decooney,

Thanks for the advice.

CB

[Anthony]

Originally posted by cbmax




Looks like compression ratio is 10.68 to 1.

Motor has:

Comp cam (solid) 33-246-4


CB

Your cam is listed as single pattern cam, 248 dur @ .050, with about .600 lift. I may not call it an all out racing cam, but it is more radical than probably anything ever offered by any the OEM's in the sixties, including the Ford 427's, hemi's, L88's. I wouldn't get any more radical than this. But it should be fine, with a lightweight car like the cobra. Maybe a dual pattern would get you alittle more hp, but you'd probably not notice much difference , if any, driving it, but the see the difference only on the dyno.

[CSX 4027]

Originally posted by cbmax


CSX 4027


I checked a build sheet on Gessford Machine Website for a 427 Shelby block. Cam was 33-245-4 using 4.27 pistons.

....And, your point is? ... George builds $28K motors. Not that money is everything, but thought this might be a good comparison

.....a lot of street guys want good dependable power and are not concerned with every last drop of hp and do not like loosing kidneys at idle. The $28,000, I'm sure was for all the "Good Stuff", American Billet Crank, American rods, not China H-Beams, CNC port work etc, etc

By no means do I claim to be a mechanic, so don't take this poorly.

....I'lll be fine ....Easy Killer!!!!!!

I'll report back more details tomorrow when I speak with Joe.

[CSX 4027]

The part number 33-246-4 is in fact 248@50 int & exh

Originally posted by decooney


CB,
IF you do have the 33-245-4 cam, it is not listed as .248 @ .050 as Steve denotes as beeing "too small". Its a 282S which is 236 @ .050, and a tad smaller even more. I ran this cam in my last car. Its a good cam with a wide power band, not overly radical.

I would guess your results do relate to your existing carb setup combined with mild porting (did that include a port matched intake job?), and the camshaft you are using.

Try changing to a properly jetted HP carb with a little more cfm. and I bet you'll pick up some more HP. Good luck.

Check Here - Is this your Camshaft?

[CSX 4027]

[quote]Originally posted by Anthony


[ I may not call it an all out racing cam, but it is more radical than probably anything ever offered by any the OEM's in the sixties, including the Ford 427's, hemi's, L88's.

Anthony,
The original 427 C3 AA Cobra Cam was in fact more duration than the Comp Cam in this thread. It was advertised at 306. The comp is advertised at 294. That's a difference right there and remember the Cobra's made about 480hp back then. With valve spring tech in the 60's, they couldn't run a bunch of lift either so, the power was made the old fashioned way, with compression which most can't run on the street today. No more Sunoco 260 at the pumps for .39/gallon.
With todays tech and big cubes, we can make a lot more power than they made in '65. It's all in the combo and what the customer is willing to live with.

[CSX 4027]

My last 427 was a standard bore original iron block with 1st generation Shelby aluminum heads that did not flow much better than the originals. It was a stock 3.78 stroke 12:1 compression
1-750 cfm 4bbl with a bigger cam than we are speaking of and we made 581hp. I was 427 cubes. The motor in question by size alone should have the ability to surpass the 581 or at least come close. Keith kraft seems to do it all day long.

[bmcmillan]

cbmax,

I would definitely get a dyno simulation program. Change one variable at a time and you will be amazed!

In my humble opinion, your engine is starving for air. If you change to a single-plane manifold (Torker, Victor, etc.) you will probably find 30-45 HP. With an engine that size you need ported heads and manifold - even the Edelbrock heads aren't enough. Probably worth another 40-50 HP - seriously.

Play around with the cam timing. FE's respond well to certain mods and not at all to others. If you run bigger valves than 2.09"/1.73" and lift greater than about .600", you get almost no gain.

You also need a cam with longer duration - remember that 469 cid is a big motor. Try to keep the lobe centers greater than 112 degrees and try to keep the overlap less than about 32 degrees. You can accomplish all this by playing around with cam timing on the simulation program.

Good luck.

Brian

[RICK LAKE]

cbmax CB a couple of things, First the exhaust is causing you about 20-40 hp. If you want race pipes ERA will build you a set. They are Loud and give ringing of the ears without ear plugs. 2, drive the car for a while and break the engine in slowly. I have 358hp and 467 tork. I have placed high in the R&G in street tires the last 3 years. 700hp is not what you want. Joe has made you a like motor. Stay off the 7000 rpm rev limiter and you should get many seasons of enjoyment out of the car. If you are going for more power take a hard look at the tork numbers, don't worry about HP. Tork moves the car froma stand still, not HP. 550 hp and 650 hp is about all the power you want unless you are a PRO race car driver. This car is quick and unsettling to drive, it's faster than you. Start with what you have, then if you need more build another motor for MAX CRAZINESS Rick Lake