HP and Torque numbers

[RICK LAKE]

Jay Brown just did a complete buildup of a 511 FE motor on the FE forum. Big motor,high compression,.700" lift cam, 1150 carb, major head work and list is there with charts. I know of 2 484 FE motors with the same major work, One runs 58mm Berg carbs, the heads done by Kuntz the other is wtcobra's motor. These motors make 700 hp and spin to 7800 rpm. I would like for someone at a dyno to show me how a motor with 10.0 compression with a cam under .650" lift is maken 700 hp. I have run the numbers repeatedly and 80 hp and 100 ft of tork are missing from both Dyno 2000 and Dynosim. When I built my motor and it was dynoed, the hp was 5hp off and 8 ft of tork. Webbers or Bergs will make 20-40 hp more more than a carb in the mid range but loose in the top end to a carb. Webers or bergs have the ring housing inside the throat of the carb bodys, The TWM don't. Depending on injector spray pattern would add maybe 5-10 hp. Jay is in the Engine master challenge with this motor, the REAL numbers will come out in the writeup. If anyone is build a 500+ motor, go to FE forum and read 511" FE at the Dyno. right now it is on page 2 at the bottom. There is some great info there. Yeah I know,I should live in the Showme State. Rick Lake

[Morris]

Rick

Those are the numbers we have on our 496 motor....and we use a Dominator ..... 4500....

And spin it to 7600 rpm's....

Morris

[misfit41]

Rick I'm thinking to get those numbers with such a short lift it must be in great head work and lots of revs.
In my 496 I have a solid roller 266-272,.740-.740 at 109 with 26-28 lash ,I'm making 759.8 at 6500 and 675 torque at 5100,the dyno sheet is in my gallery.
It is pretty hard to see such horsepower with a mild lift cam ,but with flow and rpm I would say it is possible with some torque loss. Tim

[RICK LAKE]

TK what compression are you running? You have head work done to your heads? Whats the flow numbers? I have a set of heads in the basement for my next motor with 386 cfm I and 268 cfm E and .700" lift. Edelbrock heads with the floors filled in and roofs raised. Have undercut valves on 11/32 stems. A 496 motor with my setup, FI and going to a 1550cfm throttle give me 580hp and 670tork on both engine builder programs. James Baldwin was a 496 with a 4.310 bore and a solid roller cam of unknown size but is somewhere in the .650 lift area. He has 950hp carb. I ran the numbers and came out with 50 hp and 70 tork thanwhat he was show his motor had. I have seen some redicious numbers on dyno sheets with 120% VE numbers. Any dyno can be played with to show numbers higher than what you have. I want to see was Jay B's motor puts out at the challenge. If your motor is running these numbers, I would enter your motor in the challenge and see how it stacks up. I have see motors running 15-1 A/F ratios on dyno sheet and find it hard to believe that running this lean a motor can live long, even with coatings on valves,heads,and pistons. I am looking into Swan coatings for my motor parts. Lean is Lean more power is made at 12.8-13.4 than at 15.0-1 unless something new has happened in the last 2 months. Got to go to a picnic. Later Rick Lake

[ERA Chas]

I certainly agree with your basic question.
How are these motors doing the number at low compression and lift. I agree with TK's thought-it's great heads and air velocity. At least Tim's number is the result of heads, compression and big lift.
Not to pick nits but the EM Challenge this year is for 509's. Jay Brown's is 511. I read his story on FE Forum but didn't see where he's planning for the Challenge. Also, the Challenge measures average numbers between 2500 and 6500, not peaks as Jay shows in his presentation.
Please clarify if I missed something.

[RICK LAKE]

ERA Chas Your right ,I stand corrected Barry R is in the engine master challenge. He is built a 510 motor. Put a thicker head gasket on Jay's motor and you will get a 509. Rick Lake

[ERA Chas]

Yeah, but those guys even have a "thicker-head-gasket rule."

[Keithc8]

This challenge is for an average from 2500 to 6500rpms and premium pump gas. These engine will have all sorts of little tricks that your programs do not take in account for. They will use special light cranks and rods, smaller rod journals, lighter pistons, light tension rings. The camshaft would have a more aggressive ramp speeds than what would be run in most cars. The heads will be tweeked to flow very well in the .300 to .600 lift range. The rules also allow these guys to weld in the ports, raise the floors as long as the stock style intake will bolt up which can also be welded in. There will be some different bore stroke combinations played with as well. You will see the winner of this thing make close to 800HP because they will work with the chamber design, quench area and camshaft to get where they can run about 12 to 12.5 to 1 on this fuel. These engine would not be praticle to drive on a daily bases. If you were building a Ford you would probably want to build a 460 style engine anyway.
When you have a 510C.I. engine with about 10.5/10.8 to 1 compression and you use good heads with a good intake and do a solid roller it is not very hard to make 700HP, hell it is a 510C.I. engine.
We take 440C.I. 428CJ Super Stock engines that have to use the stock cast iron heads with the stock runner volumes. We can port the heads but they still have to cc what they came from the factory with. This engines have a small dich with a 68cc head and this give you about 10.8/11.0 at the most. We use a Dove intake, solid roller, light pistons and rings with a T&D rocker system. We turn these engines 8000 rpms and make over 700HP with them. So the y 510C.I. engine is easy.
If you have a engine designed right with the right camshaft, heads and intake you can have a VE of 120 and even better on real nice race engines. The FE engine is now just getting up to speed and close to what these other engines have been doing for a while. Just my two cents worth. Keith Craft

[Cracker]

Keith - don't waste your energy - it's a dead issue. Rick has a short memory since he questioned the exactly same issues during the challenge (you answered then - I guess after a year or so he forgets) but the "search" tool would answer all of his questions. Some don't get it (or won't accept it)...

Got to go to a picnic - later.

[misfit41]

Rick,
My engine is right at 10.5,,I have Craft Stage 3 eldebrocks,Keith did the engine .
good luck,Tim

[RICK LAKE]

Keithc8 Keith I know about some of the tricks they have done with the master challenge. Honda rods, trick cranks with counter wieghts cut off, flanges with 3 bolts to hold the flywheel. Moving valve locations from stock position. The stroke to bore ratio. the pistons are out of the bores with .010 clearance to the heads. I don't know if you agree with this but a Oval or round port is going to give the best flow of any head. I would go with oval and fill in the floor and roof for max flow and blend it into the valve area. Nail head valves give 4-6% more flow than tulip valves on intake. On exhaust a 2-4% more flow comes from tulip over nail valves. Different heads respond to different backcuts on the valves. This is all due to port design. Bore clearance onthe valves also helps. Cam profile is the rest. The higher the vacuum you can keep in the motor, the more fuel and air can go in. The limitation is the carb or fuel injection body sizes. If Kaase builds a 510 SVO motor I think he will win. If time permits in august I want to stop by your race shop and see one of these street motors on a dyno. A motor is still a vacuum pump and physic can't be changed, BENT but not changed. I have the head program coming for port design and flow. I might even go to a head porting school to get the basics down. A wet flow bench is not out of the possiblity either. There is a different between wet flow and dry flow bench? I am also talking real street motors like what you build not 8000 rpm race motors. Even with all the tricks done to a motor, with the right numbers installed in the program, 5-8% vary is max unless you are in death valley. Rick Lake

[RICK LAKE]

Cracker When Keith built your engine and ALL the CRAP was flying I think you will find that I said he could and did hit the numbers you where looking for. My memory is fine, unlike you I don't know everything and ask alot of questions. If you looked at the old thread there was a question about the VE numbers and the running of 15.0-1 AF. You are NOT going to make the highest HP or Tork numbers at this reading unless there is new design and parts that just came out in the last 6 months. I ran programs when Keith took your challenge and was off by 8hp and 12ft of tork with the numbers that where on the thread. If you except everything you are told, you are a bigger fool than me. You probably think the country is in GOOD shape right now too, 10 million jobs lost to outscourcing is OK. Kuntz and KCR are at the front of the FE motor movement for more power. Like everything, things change. The old guard that built FE's back in the 60's are passing on. Alot of the info is not being saved or writen down, the new info that Kuntz and KCR are doing is secret right now because they make a living at this. Your right about getting IT. I want to get it RIGHT, unlike you. Hope you have a nice picnic, was there wine and cheese at the picnic for you? Rick Lake

[ERA Chas]

Thanks for sharing the info and examples of power production at this level.
Your 2 cents worth is worth considerably more than that.
You're in business to make $$ so speed secrets can't be shared until they become more apparent, but your explanations of how things work are most welcomed by me, for one.

[Keithc8]

Rick Lake the wet flow benches have brought some new information sooner because some of the stuffed learned with them would in the past had to been tried on the engine on the dyno to see if the engine picked up power. Where the fuel pudles and seperates and how to keep it seperated or automized can now be seen on the wet bench. I only have the dry bench right now, a Super Flow SF600. We would like to add the wet bench in the future.
A lot of the things you say about the ports and valves is correct. The intakes seem to like a oval port and large radius corners. The intale valve general will like being a nail head with about a 12 degree back angle. The valve job and valve angles are much more important than most people know. This is very true for the intake and the exhaust. I can see in the future having directional pieces or grooves possibly cut into the walls.
You know will see the high compression FE engines in the 489 to 510C.I. range that will make 850 to 900HP with the head flow we have now. I hope to have someone want to build one soon. We have built one 489 that made 870 with a cast single 4 dominator carb. The customer has been bracket racing this engine for about 2 years now. Best times I believe are 8.30 at 160mph in a 64 Falcon with a Lenco.
I hope you get a chance to drop by the shop and see one of the engine on the dyno and look at the shop. Thanks, Keith Craft

[RICK LAKE]

Keithc8 Thanks for your time and knowledge you are sharing. I know that you guys are pushing the 900 hp window. compression is in the 14.0-16.0-1. Carbs are getting better at atomizing the fuel, but the trick is vacuum readings at WOT. All the new designed manifolds are coming out with wave ports to help speed the flow, stop drag of the inlet charge of A/F. Puddling is stopped when the accell pumps on the carb give that shot of fuel to accell the motor. I think a 1000 hp FE motor is not out of the question. A head design will make this possible. I think you can getaway without 5.0" bores, the tunnel port heads look to be the answer without the pushrod tubes going through the intake port. Oval the intake port and move the pushrod, with an offset rocker setup you are there. SOHC heads are coming and figured the intake flow would be in the mid 400 cfm without alot of work. You can get sets of the beehive on that nascar used parts site. They say that they are used for testing and maybe 1 race. Thats all. The spring are like new and with sprayer built into the valve covers to keep the springs from over heating, they could like in a street motor for a long life. Thanks for the invite to the shop. Will try to stop down on the way to St lious for the Run&Gun. Last week in august. I have some work to do on the car. Rick Lake

[Keithc8]

I was hoping to have my Kirkham ready for the Run and Gun but I will be cuting it close. I hope to have the pistons here this week so I can get the engine done and then start to work on the car. I will have to fit everything and get the side pipes coated and this seems to take to long. I also am waiting on some parts to get back for the engine that are getting coated, just external parts for looks. If I had time I thought about the stack injection but I do not think I will have time. When is the Run and Gun this year. Thanks, Keith

[Dwight]

ttt

[RICK LAKE]

Keithc8 The Run&Gun is the last weekend of August. 25-27 The 28 is a rain date if needed. You will save $50.00 if you get your event forum in before july 15 I think I will have to look. You can rent a garage for $60.00 for the 3 days. Call Gail at St. Lious for more info. There are 5 hotels 10 minutes from the track. We stay at the Holiday in collinsville. Tell them you are there for the Run and Gun and get 10% of the bill. The breakfast is worth the extra price differents alone. Get the car ready and use whatever motor you have laying around. The Classes are street tires,prepared, and pro. Small block and big block and power added (your class) just kidding. Alot of nice people go and everybody helps when cars break. You may want to add a accump to your car for the roadracing 180 degree off camber turn. You can loose oil pressure on this neg G turn. I have a 3 quart one and canton road race pan. Hope you can make it. Rick Lake

[Mike Simard]

Rick, what are these "wave port" manifolds you speak of? I'm surprised that we don't hear more about manifold tricks during horsepower challenges.