Finish my engine for Kirkham

[Keithc8]

Lew I feel that in most cases the single 4 barrel is a better way to go because one less carb to fool with. I will say that ProSystems did a good job on these and they worked fine on the dyno. I will see how they work on the street. Did not have to do anything except richen up a little and idle down. This thing sounds neat idling at 800 rpms. I hope to have finished by Run and Gun so we can take some people for a ride or let them have a drive. I think I have about everything, just have to cut bellhousing and index then get powder coated.
I thought about the Blue Thunder heads but after measuring the exhaust height which was about 1/2 inch higher I decided to use the Edelbrocks. I talked to rob and he said any higher than stock and the headers would not work. Thanks, Keith

[The Dreamer]

Lew,

The engine likes the K&Ns much better than the S&H foam filters. I can tell a different and smell a difference (with the foam filters, the car ran a lot richer) without any measurments. The problem is I had to widen the hood scoop oval quite a bit to get the K&Ns to fit. The S&H filters fit under the hood. The K&Ns stick up into the scoop.

[Keithc8]

I have seen this problem as well with the foam filters. I even had a guy put one on his car and it idled up because it richened it up that much. I have a customer that took his oval air cleaner and made him a new bottem that was dropped so he could get a 4 inch element under his hood and still get the engine good air flow. I hope I can get him to do one for me as well. I see a lot of the Cobra's with what looks to be to small an air filter. Good luck, Keith

[Jamo]

Keith

I had some problems with bronze gears and finally gave up and went back to a non-roller solid lifter cam (with a steel gear)...just about the same lift as you're running on both of my solid roller and non-roller cams.

I thought you couldn't put anything but a bronze gear in one of these Shelby FEs? Since I still have a perfectly good solid roller cam sitting on the shelf...PLEASE tell me there's a way. Do you have to do something to the cam?

Everything I heard points to the Jesels being well worth the price of admission. (Best cutting tool I've ever seen is what a "normal" solid roller lifter that's lost it's tiny assed needle bearing will do to a cam!) But I wasn't going to spend the money given the problem with the doggone bronze gears.

I always wondered if long cruises/street driving (and the accompanying low rpms with stop and go) might be tougher on them versus racing with them, and yet hydraulic cams with them never seem to have a problem.

Another issue was that the high pressure oil pump running off that same piece of relatively soft material was an issue and that a dry sump would be necessary to make it live on the street, but I see you're running a wet sump.

Thanks for any info. I wouldn't mind going back to the roller setup in the future if there's a way to resolve that issue.

[bret a ewing]

Jamo,


Do you have an original (circa '60's) 427 S/O block or a current Shelby aluminum block?

Bret.

[Dave Rodak]

Originally posted by Keithc8


I have a customer that took his oval air cleaner and made him a new bottem that was dropped so he could get a 4 inch element under his hood and still get the engine good air flow.

Like this....?



OR?




BTW... Shelly is correct to be afraid. Kim won't ride with me!


Dave

P.S. This was my sister-in-law Rose's first (and she says last!) ride.

[Jamo]

Bret...Shelby.

[bret a ewing]

Jamo,

Asked what block you are using to see what oiling issues, if any, are surfacing. Correct them before the install.


I think Comp Cams has a plastic (composite) gear out now.

Bret.

[lineslinger]

Dave Rodak,
How were you guys able to drop that lower air filter support plate without interfering with the linkage?
Has anyone ever fooled around with lowering the lower airfilter support plate for a dual quad so it would accept the larger KN filter and still not need a modified hood scoop?
Don't mean to hijack the thread, the photos just got me curious.

[Jamo]

Bret

Keith and others know a he!! of alot more about prepping the Shelby block than I, if that's what you're using.

I know one critical area is the drain at the back of the crank. My engine builder opened up those two little holes into a good sized channel so the oil doesn't just sit there wanting to blow out the rear main (mine has remained completely dry back there the whole time). Also, the crank needs to have some scribing (or whatever you call it) to pull oil away from the same area. I know there's a great deal of more prep work that goes into having the block ready, but this was one critical thing Boghosian (my builder) and Jorge Anderson were picky about, and I'm sure Keith pays attention to it as well.

[Keithc8]

Dave I think it was Allen Halbert that did his this way that rob was telling me about. Did you do yours or did Rob have it done. I know I am going to need mine done this way if it will still clear the linkage on the 2x4. I was pulling about 1000cfms at the top of the pull through both carburetors together. I see a lot of small air cleaners on these cars and I know that it is choking it down.
I will do some checking on the cam gear stuff. Comp Cams does have a new polymer type gear out but may not have one for the FE. I also know that we use a steel gear on the hydraulic rollers and they also do some of the solid roller camshafts with this core. I will see if the steel gear will work on the solid roller cores as well. I know that a lot of the distributor gears are just stuck on the distributors where the hole is drilled in the gear. This is not always the location it needs to be. We have found some on in the wrong place and this caused premature wear. Keith

[barry]

Keith,

Glad you found a shop to build you a FE Stroker! It looks as good as the numbers you posted. Hope it all fits under your hood. Looking forward to my little stroker from KCR, you are the Man!

[saltytri]

Keith:

Speaking of air cleaners, what would you consider adequate for the 450 HP 331? I've got a round 11" by 2" on it now. Might be able to fit a larger diameter but probably not a 3" on the Holley unless I can fit a dropped base. Any ideas?

Thanks for a really sweet motor!

David

[Ibr8k4vetts]

David,
Try this http://www.secondstrike.com/Technica...leanerCalc.asp

[JRoss]

Here is a pic of the drop air cleaner base. It allows me to run a 3 inch k&n on a divinci carb with a 1 inch space and fit it all under the hood.

John

[saltytri]

Mike:

Thanks for the link to the calculator. It looks like I'm OK with the K&N oiled filter.

David

[Daniel Jones]

> Comp Cams does have a new polymer type gear out but may not have one for
> the FE.

When I checked a few weeks ago, they only had part numbers listed for
the SBC, BBC, and Windsor Fords (both 0.467" and 0.530" shafts).

> I also know that we use a steel gear on the hydraulic rollers and they
> also do some of the solid roller camshafts with this core.

Comp Cams uses a -8 part number austempered ductile iron cam core for their
SBF retrofit hydraulic roller cams and for some (most) of their street solid
roller cams. A -9 part number 8620 steel cam core is used for the race
solid roller grinds. I checked Comp's website and they list the -8 and -9
cam cores for the SBF and 351C but only -9 cores for the FE. Beware there
may be compatibility problems if you attempt to put a hydraulic roller
profile on a -9 core. I ran into this recently when I attempted to have
some hydraulic roller profiles (Comp 3636 intake and 3637 exhaust) put on
Comp's -9 core. The steel cores they use are rough machined for race solid
roller lobes and grinding milder hydraulic roller lobes will cut through the
cam heat treat. This was for a 351C application but I assume it applies to
their FE cores.

My solution was to use similar lobes from Crane. Crane uses standard base
circle 8620 steel cam cores for their hydraulic roller grinds. The standard
base circle cams are better (less side loading) but require the link bar
Crane lifters (and not the cheaper OEM Ford lifters) in retrofit applications
(blocks without the raised lifter bores). Different roller lifters may have
different diameter rollers so there may be compatibility issues with very
small base circles. Crane says their roller lifters are fine on 1.090"
diameter reduced base circle cams.

> I will do some checking on the cam gear stuff.
> I will see if the steel gear will work on the solid roller cores as well.

Let us know what you find. I recently looked into this when I was doing
a custom hydraulic roller cam for my Pantera. I'm running a 351C-based
engine (Fontana block with C302B high port heads) so the part numbers
below apply to 351C/351M/400 and 429/460 distributor gears. Don't know if
this heps any but here are the distributor gear options I found:

1. Cast Iron Distributor Gears
These are the standard distributor gears used on hydraulic and solid flat
tappet camshafts which use iron cores. Not compatible with most hydraulic
or solid roller cam steel cores. However, Comp Cams claims there -8 part
number hydraulic rollers (which use a cast iron core) are compatible with
standard cast iron cam gears. Note that some cast iron gears from auto
parts stores are substantially softer than OEM iron gears. Also note that
some cam companies use a harder core for certain race solid flat tappet
grinds which may require a bronze (or other material) gear. MSD says its
iron distributor gears are surface-hardened a few points higher than stock
gears because most performance flat-tappet cams are ground on better quality
(harder) cores.

2. Ford Motorsport Steel Gear
P/N M-12390-J (1.421" OD, 0.531" ID, for 351C) in the FRPP catalog.
From page 105 of the 2005 FRPP catalog: "Steel gears are compatible with
billet steel camshafts (hydraulic roller type)". Comp Cams also claims
the Ford gears are compatible with their -8 austempered ductile iron
hydraulic roller cam cores (Comp also uses the -8 cores for some solid
street roller cams). One tech I spoke with at Comp said the Ford hydraulic
roller cam gear was prefered over a standard cast iron gear. According to
MSD, the Ford mild steel distributor gears (as fitted to engines with factory
hydraulic roller cams) are softer than the common ductile iron gears, but
harder than bronze. MSD also claims that Chevy uses a harder cam core for
it's factory hydraulic rollers and uses cast iron gears but that its gears
don't last as long as the Ford gears. Some 5.0L Ford racers have used the
Ford gear on steel cam cores without incident but it's not recommended.

3. Crane Steel Gear
Crane has a coated steel gear which they claim is compatible with induction
hardened or carburized steel roller cores, as well as iron flat tappet cores.
Their website refers to it them as "specially coated and processed steel
distributor gears using either cast flat faced lifter or steel roller
camshafts". They list two part numbers for 351C distributors:

52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft diameter
52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft diameter

Crane does not recommend the use of their gears on camshafts that have been
previously run with other types or materials of gears. Rob at Blue Oval
recommended this gear. Comp Cams did not recommend this gear on their -8
cores. Mike Trusty ran a Crane gear and had it fail in short order. Asa
Jay currently runs Crane's gear on a Crane steel roller cam. I'm told but
have not verified that Crane's earliest steel gears were made like the Ford
gears but their new gears are different. It may be the case that Mike's gear
was the early version and Asa Jay's the late? In any case, I've spoken with
several people who are running the current Crane gears with no problems. Asa
Jay was kind enough to remove his distributor and check the gear and reported
it had a normal contact pattern and wear.

4. Mallory Distributor Gear
Mallory makes a distributor gear for their distributors that are made
specifically for "austempered ductile iron billets" and "proferal billet"
cams. It is supposed to be compatible with the Comp Cams austempered iron
cam cores. As I understand it, the gear is heat-treated for compatibility.

5. Bronze-Aluminum Distributor Gears
Generally softer than iron. Compatible with most cam cores but wears
rapidly. A bronze distributor gear is essentially sacrificial, wearing
the distributor gear instead of the roller cam gear. Usually specified
for solid roller cams. Note that hardness can vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer. If running one of these gears, you may want to run an
oil filter without a bypass so the filter catches the wear particles.
On a 351C, consider using Purolator oil filter number L30119. It's a
full size replacement for the FL-1A Ford/PH8A Fram filter. It has no
bypass spring in the middle but it does have the rubber flapper for
anti-drainback. The original application is for a 1978 Nissan 510, 2.0L
4 cyl engine (L20B) which had the bypass valve in the engine block.
This filter cross-references to a Fram PH2850, a Motorcraft FL-181,
and a Wix 51452. However, those filters have not been verified and may
have a bypass. It appears after 1978, Nissan went to a half height
filter. Purolator part number L22167 fits that application and does not
have the bypass spring but does have the rubber flapper for anti-drainback.
Race engines may want to run dual filters.

6. Comp Cams Carbon Ultra-Poly Composite Distributor Gear
Also meant as a replacement for rapid wearing bronze gears, Comp has a
composite material gear. These are currently only available for Windsor
Fords and small and big block Chevys.

More on the cam gear hardness problem. A few years back, Steve Grossen
ruined several cams and gears on a 351W which led him to Rockwell (B scale)
test several distributor gears. A generic auto parts cast iron gear tested
at 70, the bronze gear at 90, and the stock Ford gear was 102. Note that
the soft bronze gear was harder than the generic auto parts cast iron gear.
Steve eventually traced his trouble to a batch of cam cores with improperly
machined gears (Comp doesn't check each gear, only a statistical sampling).
Comp replaced the cams and eventually gave him one with the "NASCAR"
treatment" (filed, wire brushed on a wire wheel, and bead blasted).

> I know that a lot of the distributor gears are just stuck on the
> distributors where the hole is drilled in the gear. This is not always
> the location it needs to be. We have found some on in the wrong place
> and this caused premature wear.

Yes and it's not only the up-and-down placement but also fore-and-aft.
We ran into a problem on an engine that used a front cover mounted
distributor and it had to be bored and bushed to get proper gear mesh.
MSD recommends using a moly lube to break-in the cam/distributor gears.
They say squirting it on the gear is insufficient and suggest using a
toothbrush to work it into the pores of the metal. Some sources recommend
that whenever you remove a distributor, that you mark it so you can reinstall
the gear in the same position to maintain the wear pattern.

Dan Jones

[Keithc8]

This whole cam gear issue can be weird. We have had to use the steel gear on some of the flat-tappet stuff that we were getting from Comp Cams and Lunati on the SBF cams. We started have cam gear life problems with the standard flat-tappet style cams from both companies about 4 years ago. They tried to blame on to much oil pump pressure and things like that. We had several customers just have the gear that cam on there distributors from MSD wear out within 100 miles and break. We started using the steel gears on these camshafts and no more problems with gears at all. We told both Comp and Lunati about it and I think they thought we were crazy. I told them when they got tired of customers *****ing about gear problems just tell them to use the steel gear. We have been running the steel gear on the -9 cam cores for the FE hydraulic rollers now for about 2 years with no problems. We also make sure that we do not go through the harden on the cam cores when we do the camshafts. They have some different cores for different duration and lift camshafts. Just like right now we are waiting on some of these cores for our hydraulic rollers because all they have are to big and wil grind through the hardning.
John Ross I will need to figure out if I can do something like that with my air cleaner. Thanks, Keith Craft

[Dave Rodak]

Originally posted by Keithc8

Dave I think it was Allen Halbert that did his this way that rob was telling me about. Did you do yours or did Rob have it done.

Allan did mine for Rob. After I saw Allan's setup in Austin, I begged him to fabricate one for me. As you know, Allan is a bit of a visionary and one hell of a nice guy. He tells a great story too!

Many people have PM'd me offline about these drop base air cleaners. Call Rob Camp at KCM 972-578-3550 for details and pricing.


Dave

P.S. Keith, I didn't congratulate you on your engine numbers on the phone Sunday. I guess I figured you'd go for 800 fwhp and 528 cid just to do me one better!

[Daniel Jones]

> This whole cam gear issue can be weird. We have had to use the steel gear
> on some of the flat-tappet stuff that we were getting from Comp Cams and
> Lunati on the SBF cams.

Interesting. I had a Lunati flat tappet cam eat its gear on a 351C and
a friend had several Comp flat tappets do the same on a 351W. I never
considered using the Ford steel gears on those cams since they were flat
tappet iron cores. Now that I think of it, MSD claims the Ford steel gears
are actually softer than their iron gears so that would imply it's safe
to run the Ford steel gear on an iron core

> We started have cam gear life problems with the standard flat-tappet style
> cams from both companies about 4 years ago. They tried to blame on to much
> oil pump pressure and things like that.
>
> We had several customers just have the gear that cam on there distributors
> from MSD wear out within 100 miles and break. We started using the steel
> gears on these camshafts and no more problems with gears at all.

Do you use the Crane, MSD or Ford steel gears?

> We told both Comp and Lunati about it and I think they thought we were
> crazy. I told them when they got tired of customers *****ing about gear
> problems just tell them to use the steel gear.

At least Crane has got the message. They recommend their steel distributor
gears for both iron flat tappet and steel roller cores. I went with Crane's
hydraulic roller lifters, steel cam, distributor and steel gear so hopefully
they'll play nice together. We plan on drilling a feed hole to supply oil
directly to the gear and will check the wear pattern after run-in.

> We have been running the steel gear on the -9 cam cores for the FE hydraulic
> rollers now for about 2 years with no problems.

Good to know. The only steel gear I've found for the FE is the Crane.
Is that what you use or does someone else make an FE steel gear?

Another question about your experience with aluminum block FE's. Is it
necessary to sleeve the lifter bores when running roller lifters? I've
run flat tappet cams in aluminum block lifter bores before with no problems
but this Fontana block is the first time I've tried a hydraulic roller lifter
in an aluminum bore.

> We also make sure that we do not go through the harden on the cam cores when
> we do the camshafts. They have some different cores for different duration
> and lift camshafts. Just like right now we are waiting on some of these
> cores for our hydraulic rollers because all they have are too big and will
> grind through the hardening.

Good to know.

Much apreciated,
Dan Jones