427 s/o engine melt down??????

[blykins]

That's what I'm wondering. I'm assembling an engine myself.....I wanna get all the mistakes out of the way.

[HSSS427]

I know everyone is sitting at the computers, eagerly awaiting the next chapter in the saga. So here it is......

Talked to Tony Hull aka Cracker about the scenario and here's what we've figured thus far:

1. The rookie mistake was when I filled the engine with coolant, I neglected the fact that I have a thermostat on the engine, thus when you poor the coolant into the surge tank it fills the hoses and radiator, but doesn't fill the engine block.
2. This caused the engine to overheat but my water temp didn't show it as it was reading air temp since the water wasn't getting to it.
3. The water pump had no resistance to the water, so it was just freewheeling and thus throwing off the fan belt
4. The engine got hot enough for the rings to loose tension, which resulted in blow by, thus blowing the oil out the breater and oil dipstick
5. Blew the head gasket as when I drained the oil, I had water in the pan

So, repeat item #1 for education: MAKE SURE YOU TAKE OUT THE THERMOSTAT WHEN FILLING THE ENGINE WITH COOLANT SO THAT THE BLOCK GETS FILLED WITH COOLANT. AND DON'T TRUST THE WATER TEMP GAUGE TO INDICATE YOU HAVE A PROBLEM IN REGARD TO THIS ISSUE!

Also, Keith Craft, being the class act he is, just called me after getting word of this post. He suggested I'm on the right track and to call if I needed advice. Also, Cracker is going to stop by to offer moral support and counsel.

In short, here's where I'm at:

- Stipping down the top of the engine so I can remove the intake and heads
- Keith suggested I check that all the pistons are coming up to same heigth (ie haven't screwed up a rod or bearings)
- Check the piston tops, etc
- Install new head gasket and re-assemble
- MAKE SURE I TAKE OUT THE THERMOSTAT WHEN FILLING THE ENGINE WITH COOLANT SO THAT THE BLOCK GETS FILLED WITH COOLANT.
- Do a pressure test and leak down test - per Keith looking for somewhere around 200 psi and consistent level across all cylinder
- See if it's smokin or running poorly

Still offering incense and slaughtered calves to the engine gods in hopes its just the head gasket and I don't have to re-build the short block. Prayers and like offerings appreciated

Thanks!
Scott

[Excaliber]

An old motor is more likely to be damaged by 'heat' than a new one?

I would question that! My gutt tells me todays modern engines are MORE likely to suffer damage than the old ones. Alloy heads being one reason, tighter specs, more precise engineering, etc.

But even at that 250 Deg. F by itself is not a 'killer temp'. Around 300 Deg. F for OIL TEMP is bad news, at that point it starts to break down. But at 250 Deg I doubt that it's lost any lubricity and in fact may be performing better than ever.

However the KILLER thing about THIS overheat episode was the LOSS of water from the radiator hose coming off. The WATER TEMP gauge will read MUCH lower than actual engine temp with no water in the system. 250 Deg was the 'tip of the ice berg' as to real engine heat in this case.

[HSSS427]

BTW - sent post above before reading through all the other here. Looks like several people had figured out most of the portions of the problem. Off to pull intake and heads. Will report back after that!

Thanks again, and another great testament to the value of Club Cobra!

[blykins]

I sorta disagree with the prognosis. Yes you filled the surge tank, hoses, and radiator....but when you fired the engine, the water pump should have sucked it out of the radiator into the engine block. Of course it waits in the block until the thermostat opens and it returns to the radiator to cool.

I think what happened is that you just didn't have enough coolant in there at all. The level was way low...and it was just inefficient at cooling the engine down.

You don't have to "remove" the thermostat....just leave the cap open and watch the level. When it goes down, add more. You can't add too much. It will puke it out to the overflow bottle (and on the ground) if you put too much in.

I agree with Ernie...if you're using aluminum heads, check them for straightness. It's easy to warp one with high heat....and check your valve seals as well.

[lineslinger]

HSSS,
I feel for you man, you are not the first and won't be the last either, thanks for explaining what happened.
After listening to your scenario I am thinking of ditching my surge tank and routing my cooling lines directly from water pump to radiator, any overheat ends up on the road via the vent on the radiator.
I was thinking along the lines of what Brent said, either way, not enough coolant. So the air temperature around the temperature sensor did not get hot enough to alert you even though things were getting hot. I would have thought it would have made the guage jump but I guess it needs that direct contact to relay an accurate reading.
When you get a chance HSSS let us know how things on "the inside" have turned out. Hope damage is minimal, good luck.

[Power Surge]

You don't need to fill the motor with no T-stat in it. Just open the T-stat and stick two asprins in it to hold it open. Then when you fill the motor, it won't be air bound, and the asprins will just melt away. Old trick I learned workng at the dealer.

[dwdshelby]

Agree with Blykins - don't most engines have a small bypass hose from the water pump to the intake? Lately most thermostats I have purchased have a small bleed hole as well.

[undy]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

You don't need to fill the motor with no T-stat in it. Just open the T-stat and stick two asprins in it to hold it open. Then when you fill the motor, it won't be air bound, and the asprins will just melt away. Old trick I learned workng at the dealer.

Are the model "T"s the same as FEs???

[Excaliber]

Many a new engine has been ruined 'right out of the box' while trying to sort out the myriad of details while you dial it in. Timing is another one. To much advance is typcial or just plain wrong timing can be a killer. If the timing is off to far it causes things like backfire through the carb (and a fire). While backfiring can be tolerated to some degree it can also be deadly to a new motor, the risk is real.

To lean with advanced timing can quickly eat up a piston. To rich, you wash the cylinders down. Loose radiator hoses that blow off is typical, as is v-belts flying around. You got to get the hose clamp positioned 'just right' and TIGHT!

I'm not sure I concur with the water pump 'free wheeling' due to lack of water, but it's possible. I would double check pulley alignment myself, perhaps the alternator spacing is 'off' just a little bit.

Excessive engine cranking and a 'no start' condition is really bad for a new motor. PRIME the carb (or wait for the electric fuel pump to fill it up) and make SURE the base timing is in the ball park before you start it up. When you DO start it up you need to be able to hold a decent rpm without a miss and backfiring for about 20 minutes. That is CRITICAL if you have a solid lifter cam. You WILL kill the cam if the motor is not 'right' when you first start it up.

To get a motor to 'live' in the first hours\miles is ALL about the 'details'. Leave no stone unturned.

As far as filling with water goes, I prefer a surge tank and simply 'watch' it when the motor starts. When the Stat opens the water will suddenly drop a LOT, THATS when you add additional water. I leave the rad cap off with a new motor until I'm SURE I got all the air out and all the water in. There is an air bleed 'spigot' on the top side of my ERA radiator. The radiator is BELOW the surge tank and air can get trapped in there. When I fill the rad I open that valve to let air out and more water in.

[HSSS427]

Great posts that have been very helpful. The good news is that all looks well from the inside. Engine turns over by hand smoothly, there actually wasn't any obvious blow by points on the head gaskets, leading us to think if may have actually been a leak at the intake facings - the intake bolts were due to be re-torqued and weren't very tight when I undid them. I also noted that there was indeed a fair amount of water in the water jacket and it ran out all over the place when I removed the heads. So, something was getting in there.

Now I have to clean up the goop, drop the pan and clean it, and start the re-assembly. Based on the dis-assembkly, the hardest thing appears to be getting a wrench on the number 8 cylinder lower head bolt - it's down very close to the footbox and a devil to get a good angle on it. Appreciate any tips on that if you have them.

The view from inside - note all the oil & water goop in the lifter valley


Dr. Cracker confers with Dr. Craft

[Cracker]

blykins - it is thought that the engine did not have enough coolant in it to begin with. Scott then added approximately 3 gallons to the system through the expansion tank but not the block. The water pump pushes rather than sucks. Once hot enough (AIR) within the engine the thermostat did open and coolant immediately met an extremely hot engine - pressure build, steam is created and BINGO.

Power Surge - I'd think if Scott could just give his engine a couple aspirin to make the head ache go away - he would.

Scott's engine should be fine but it's a tough lesson to learn - especially on a brand new rebuild. It could have been much worse!

Scott had a great idea in creating a post that outlines the do's/don'ts with FE engines. Had he called me it's one of the first things I would have asked him about - often there's no replacement for experience and the school of hard knocks can be so darn frustrating, and expensive.

[elgecko]

On the subject of coolant and having enough of it in a FE.......I fired my 390 up this weekend, for the first time, ran it for 15-20 minutes at 2,000-2,300. Temperature reached 195-200F with fans turned on plus house fan in front.
Later, the thought of not having the block completely filled with coolant occured to me. I have an expansion tank and a drilled hole in top part of thermostat.
I loosened the water temperature sending unit in the intake and coolant came running out(motor off). Is this an good indication that the block, heads and intake are filled or is there a tiny space that may still be empty???
Dave

[HSSS427]

OK,
The heads and intake are off
The oil pan is off - letting the sludge drain out and will wipe it down
Wiped down the lifter valley to get the sludge out

What do I need to think about for re-assembly?
- Do I need to worry about getting every drop of water out of the block? If so, how do I?
- Anyone have the torque specs for the following handy:
- Shelby aluminum heads
- Aluminum intake
- Aviad Oil pan
- Looking for a set of Fel-Pro gaskets - where should I use Permatex instead, where shoud I use no Permatex, and where should I use both?
- I notice that my engine doesn't have a tray over the lifter valley as shown in several books - do I need this?
- Go the following start up tips in mind:
1. Prime the oil pump and system - leave the valve cover off so you can see the oil coming in
2. Get the initial timing as close as possible before starting and adjust as quickly as possible - forgot to mark the distributor before removing it so will have to eye ball it using the timing marks and distributor rotor location
3. prime the carb so I don't wear out the starter, and engine, waiting on the bowls to fill (mechanical pump on mine)
4. Oh yeah, MAKE SURE THE BLOCK IS FILLED WITH COOLANT!!!

[blykins]

Do you have head studs or bolts?

Use permatex in place of the cork.

You don't need a lifter valley pan.

Get all the water out that you can. Clean the pan, pump, and pickup. Wipe down everything else that you can see.

[d_ford]

It probably goes without saying but make sure number one cylinder is on the compression stroke when you set the dist. rotor at number one. Don't be 180 degrees out.

[Sharroll Celby]

How did the car run on its' first 300 miles? What did the temperature get up to?

[HSSS427]

Lets see, answers to questions - Sharroll - ran great first 300 miles, only problems were some leaking headers causing backfire and then the fan belt tossing that started this adventure.

d Ford - amen - been there and done that - actually did it the first time when I was 17 and had just stuck a 302 in my dad's 69 mustang while he was out of town, replacing the straight 6. We all thought it was cool to see the flames and backfiring going on! And despite that, I've managed to do it since then on this car

Just got off the phone with Keith Craft, and here are his answers on some of the questions I posted:

Torque specs:
- Heads - 100 lbs - coat the threads, bolt heads and washers with moly lube

- Intake - 32-34 lbs - coat with copper anti-sieze

- Rocker stands - 42 lbs

- Pre load the hydraulic lifters 1/2 - 3/4 turn after tight. Work your way through the firing order while you do this with the following guidelines: turn the crank until the exhaust valve starts to open - then you can set the intake valve on that cylinder. When the intake valve is closing, you can set the exhaust.

Put some grease or moly on the end of the pushrods to get them to stick in the lifter cups. He's seen problems where the rods moved out of position when installing the rocker assembly and it resulted in bent rod and broken lifter.

Don't have a tray over the lifter valley as it won't fit with hydraulic cam set-up and no need for it regardless. He only uses one when someone wants a completely authentic, iron block and heads original engine build (I guess so one can show people with x-ray vision that there is a tray in there )

No sealant on the head gaskets, just clean the decks really well with lacquer thinner

He's been using 3M Emblem Adhesive spray on the intake gaskets to make them very tacky so they'll stick in place and help seal up the intake. Use gray diesel silicone on the rail area

Just got back from the mad dash south to the Summit Retail store to pick up the gasket set - had to plead my way in the door after arriving at 8:59pm when they close at 9:00 - after a 45 minute drive to get there

So, tomorrow the assembly begins! More to follow......

[HSSS427]

Just another thought / question......

If the water gauge won't catch this situation, and the oil temp in the pan didn't catch it, what's the best way to really have an accurate measure of your engine's temp so you know when the internal situation is getting out of hand? Is there some other kind of sensor or better location for current sensors?
Thanks!

[John Owen]

You have a pully problem and an air problem. Water or air in the water pump will not throw a belt - it is pully alignment. When you throw the belt, air goes to the top, temp is steam temp in noncirculating system - lower than the metal parts - and you have severe overheat - not shown on water temp and delayed on oil pan temp. Oil blowby suggests ring damage - can rebuild in situ and compression check later, or pull now - ask KCR about odds.....

Another possibility is that boiling water in the oil blew out the overflow ~ better