427 s/o engine melt down??????

[Excaliber]

The little avatar guy? Poor fellow, he only has a three speed, but I see he's getting rubber in all three gears!

[Brent Mills]

HSSS427, just an observation. Take your time. I'm getting the impression you're hustling vs. paying extra close attention to the details. Forgive me if I'm wrong...It may just be the way I'm reading it. It's just that now is the time to really take the extra time to get things squared away.

Are you making certain that the lifters are on the back side of the lobe when adjusting? Seems odd that you wouldn't have any compression and the engine would be turning over quickly, so I'm guessing things are still outta whack there.

As for the water....Yikes!

[Rick Parker]

I dearly hope it is only your lifters.

[PatBuckley]

Reading this is hard.....sorry for your issues.

I recommend taking your engine to a pro and having it done properly.

Sure it will cost you but it will be worth it when you can get in it, turn the key and drive off.

[HSSS427]

Here's the latest, although not much. I turned the engine over and water again shot out of the #2 cylinder, but none of the others.

I went ahead and relashed the driver side cylinders making sure I did intake valve when the exhaust valve was opening, and the exhaust valve as the intake was closing.

Did compression test on #5,6,7,8 and all read about 130 - which seems low but at least did show compression and consistency in readings. It also confirmed I had lashed the valves too tightly and they were being held open on the prior compression tests.

That's about it except I have emailed Keith Craft and unless he comes up with something, will likely pull the engine and take PatBuckley's advice.

[HSSS427]

I drained a little oil from the pan and there doesn't appear to be in water in there. Shining a light down into the lifter valley I can't see any water in the oil and when I took the #2 header off water did drip out of there.

Best I can tell, the water is getting in via the intake, head - (which Keith has pressure checked and repaired), or the intake to head seal / gasket. What leads me toward the intake is that there doesn't appear to be water in #1 o #3.

[Excaliber]

Man you almost have to assume the head was "OK" after getting it back from KC. The intake gaskets are pretty hard to 'scew up' during installation, but it DOES happen (I'm just skeptical it did).

SO, what are we left with? Head gasket seal? Again, sounds like a long shot assuming a 'flat head', tough to screw up a head gasket. Warped block? Cracked block? NOT looking good...

[afret]

The water passages between the head and intake are on the ends so if the intake gasket is leaking wouldn't the water tend to leak into the end ports and not the center ports? It would seem kinda strange for a leak at the passenger front of the head to skip past #1 and leak into #2 intake port.

[HSSS427]

Couple more data points - very low (40 lbs) compression in #1 and non in #3. So clearly there is a problem sealing the combustion chambers - just assuming at this point it's between the head and block, no the rings. And the head to block seal is bad enough that I'm getting water leaking into number 2, 0 compression in #3, and very low compression in #1 and #4.

Potential causes? Bad head gasket install, warped block deck, warped head. And, am I right in assuming it's not the intake gasket or seal as that wouldn't impact the compression ie I could run a compression test without the intake even installed and would still get compression in the combustion chamber right?

And for now I'm taking out the cylinder walls being cracked as it would be unlikely it would affect 3 cyliders? Rings could be bad in all 3, but that wouldn't easily explain the water.

The plot thickens. I'm trying to decide if I should go ahead and take the intake and head off, or if there are other things I should "test" before doing that. Ideas?

[HSSS427]

Afret.....I was thinking that too, and that's why I asked if it could be a cracked intake. But in looking at the picture of the block, I believe the little triangle shaped passages below the cylinder and the round passage on the top right in the picture are also water jackets as well. If so, they could leak. Am I correct that these are water passages?

[afret]

Those are water passages. With your compression readings the head gasket must not be sealing. I wonder if KC checked the head for any warp?

[HSSS427]

I asked him if he found any other problems beside the pin hole such as warping and he said he didn't. So I infered from that he did check the heads.

[olddog]

I'm kinda new around here. I have been following your tale of woe. Some thoughts that may be of help to you. There is a company that advertises a pressure sensitive paper (very thick). The paper changes colors when it is compressed at different pressures. I get the advertisement at work a lot. Sorry I cannot tell you the name off the top of my head, but if your interested I will find it.

A bad thread on a bolt or in the block could cause a bolt to bottom out before touching the head. This would cause a gasket to leak even though the bolts are torqued and nothing is warped. It wouldn't hurt to run a tap down all the threads in the block if you pull it back appart. Check the head bolts very close. Even new bolts can have a ding. Find a nut and make sure they spin freely all the way down the bolts.

Before pulling it appart, dry out the cylinder. Then pull the rocker off the intake and exhaust valve, to keep them closed, and leave the plug out. Keep radiator full of water. Let it sit over night and see if the cylinder fills up again. If it does then the water had to come in after the valves (likely head gasket). If you suspect water leaked through a valve pull the intake and see if the port is dry or full of water.

I know shops that pressure tested the water jackets on some 4 popper heads. Maybe you can find one that can verify that there is not a water leak in that head.

That leaves the block deck, and cylinder wall. You may want to see if there is a shop that has torque plates that they bolt on during the boring process that would let you borrow them. Torque them down with a gasket. You will be able to see into the cylinder. Pressure the radiator and check the cylinder for a leak (piston down). I think you would have to pull both heads to seal up the block with the torque plates, but you may be able to seal up the manifold jackets of the other head and leave it on. Not sure about that.

[HSSS427]

Swapped emails with Keith Craft this afternoon. He pressure tested the heads to 35 psi. He's expressed some worry that the heads might have cracked when I torqued them down.

I was by the Summit store today and on a whim, bought a set of ARP head studs thinking that would help ensure I had the heads and gasket lined up right as I installed them and would give more accurate torque.

Any thoughts on using studs vs bolts? Also, any experience with studs on a 427 in an ERA - or other "original" sized engine compartment? I'm wondering if I can pull the driver side head off the studs with the close spacing to the driver footbox.

Olddog - thanks for the tips. I will try some of the more simple ones and see if I can at least locate where the leak is coming from.

Will try to talk live to Keith tomorrow.

[SCOBRAC]

From the last photo you posted I see many avenues of water intrusion into the cylinder. I'm not doubting your abilities HSSS but you may not have the right tools to do the job. It looks like you have a warped head. What's your straight edge say? I'd take the heads to a machine shop and have them pressure tested and checked for warpage.

Best of Luck!

[Excaliber]

I have head 'studs' on my engine (427 side oiler). I removed a couple of studs to swap out the heads with the engine in the car. Not a big deal though. But I wouldn't use studs 'just' to make sure the head gasket gets lined up, not worth the effort and actually, it's pretty hard to 'screw up' the head gasket installation. You should have to 'dowel' alignment pins that match holes in the heads and blocks all ready for 'alignment'. If not, why not? Where are they?

My block used studs because it used to be running 12.5 to 1 and turning 7000 plus rpm. Craked the heads during torque down? Whew, the more I hear about alloy heads the less I like them.

iron heads here...

[olddog]

The surface pressure indicating film that I mentioned is advertised for gasket applications. They even show a head gasket in the add. Their web sit is www.sensorprod.com

I have not use this exact product, but have used similar products.

[HSSS427]

Finally I can report my good news! I've been having Club Cobra withdrawl in the meantime while the site was down.

I talked through the problem with Keith Craft and step one was to loosen the valve lash and then check compression. Ah ha...... when I did that I got 150 psi across all 4 cylinders on passenger side, including #2.

Next step, fill with coolant and see if I got any more water leaking into the cylinder. Did this and no water....hmmmm. Maybe there was some water left in the cylinder when I installed the heads?

So, cranked it up and Ta dah it starts up, adjusted timing, and let it run till oil and water temps came up to normal. No noticable issues except I clearly didn't get the intake front and rear rails sealed up so oil was leaking out at a pretty good pace. Had about a 1/4" gap.

So, shut down, removed the intake and re-installed using the cork gaskets for the rails with lots of gray Permatex.

Then went ahead to the fuel pump install. So have the new Clay Smith fuel pump in, fuel pressure regulator and new plumbing from pump to carb installed. Now running 1/2" aluminum line to the fuel tank. Removed the fuel tank and have a local shop installing a -8 AN fitting on it. Sould be done this afternoon or tomorrow. Replacing the rubber hose connections with -8 AN braided line and connectors. Installling Fram fuel HP1G racing fuel filter.

So, hopefully it will be back in action by end of week. Will let you know.
Thanks!

[RallySnake]

Hey Sal,

Thanks for the asprin trick. I will use it when I assemble my new engine.

Paul

[HSSS427]

Well, I guess I can't officialy say "it's fixed" until a road test, but here's the summary and it looks a whole lot better than when I posted this thread......

- Got it started tonight in the garage - too late and too many kiddie vehicles to move to get it outside for a drive
- After some messing with the distributor to get it set on a gear tooth where I could more easily turn it - it's wedged in pretty tight between the turkey pan and surge tank - got the initial timing at 21 degrees advance at 875 rpm idle. Have a 14 degree bushing in for a total of 36 all in pretty early ie by 3000 rpm
- Had a few leaks and drips from the new fuel line connections into the carburetor, but got those tightened up
- Had dirt in the needle valve assembly and the carb was flooding - pulled both needle sets and blew them dry with compressed air and that fixed it. Adjusted the float levels.
- No obvious oil leaks and no obvious fuel leaks - which is big considering I replaced the entire fuel line system from installing a -8 AN coupling on the tank, a Performance Products inline filter, -8 AN braided line replacing all rubber line, new 1/2" aluminum fuel line under the car, a Clay Smith high volume polished fuel pump, Holley fuel pressure regulator, Summit liquid filled fuel pressure gauge and I think buying and returning at least one of every type of fitting Earl's Plumbing makes to connect it all
- Intake appears dry as a bone - used the cork gaskets and a bunch of Permatex Gray
- FILLED THE BLOCK WITH DISTILLED WATER AND WATER WETTER THROUGH THE WATER TEMP SENDER HOLE, and then filled the rest up through the surge tank
- Had the surge tank cleaned and tested and repainted it with engine paint - already chipped it messin' with the distributor
- All the gauge readings looked good

Soooo..... a quick road test in the morning, then off to NC mountains with the rug rats and "she who must be obeyed" for 4th of July week - and no, I don't get to drive the Cobra

New rear tires when I get back and then big signs in the garage that say "Stop messin' around with more projects and just drive the darn thing....."

Thanks to all who've followed the saga and chipped in to help - this site is a true testament to collaboration and knowledge management via the internet - just wish I could get this level of participation in sites at work and for clients!

Scott