427 s/o engine melt down??????

[HSSS427]

I think I toasted my brand new engine!!! Say it ain't so, but here are the details thus far.......

Rebuilt 427 s/o by Keith Craft - approximately 300 miles since install. Went for a spirited ride on Sat and while coming back down the highway I did a rapid acceleration and suddenly felt hot humid air coming through the footbox vent. I shut down the car and coasted up the next exit. Water temp was about 90 c and oil temp hadn' really shot up. Found that I'd thrown the fan belt, and the overheat had blown the lower radiator hose connection off the water pump and sprayed the water all over the engine compartment. Replaced the fan belt, filled with coolant, and made it back home to fix everything up. Just some clean-up, no problems.....

Today, went out for a short, but again spirited drive. After about a 10 minute run with the car going to high revs on short bursts (6000 rpm for 10 seconds maybe), I looked down and saw the water temp at 120 c. Shut down the engine, coasted to a stop, and found the following:
- Fan belt gone again
- Oil had sprayed out the rear goose neck breather and was running down the sides of the breather

I replaced the fan belt ( had a spare in the trunk now ). Starter wouldn't turn the engine over. Coasted the car down the hill to jump it off in second gear. When I popped the clutch, the rear tires locked up, so I went back in with the clutch, tried one more time, and same result. Let the car sit on the side of the road till it cooled down. Tried the starter again, but it wouldn't turn the engine over - starter worked, but at this point appeared the engine had siezed.

So, tow truck ride back home and it's on the lift. Haven't tried anything else, but last gauge readings I recall were 120 c on water, and oil still in 80 - 90 c range.

So, where do I start? Did I melt down the rings?, bearings? Oil temp gauge is in the pan, so is it giving false readings? What caused the oil to blow out the rear breather?

Thanks!
Scott

[robneedshelp]

I Know Everything Is New,but Check Alternator And Water Pump For High Rpm Seizier.as For Oil Blow By,poss.just From High Heat.
Any How,check For The Little Stupid Things Before Freaking Out,are Hearts Are With You As None Of Us Want To See A 427 Break Down! Seen A Guy Replace A Transmission Becuase Bearing In Alternator Went Bad,shook Car So Bad,and This Was On A Huge 72 Mercury!

[lineslinger]

Hiss,
Sorry to hear about your motors problems, heat is the enemy.
MAYBE you can find a bad bearing here or a warped ring there but when a motor demonstrates the type of protest yours is showing, the only real way to deal with it is to pull it and go through it. Keep in mind there is a trickle down effect, one sour part will definately affect the next in line, everything has to work together without hinderence otherwise it just becomes a lesson in frustration.
Save yourself some (maybe serious) cash and fix it now rather than try to "drive" through it. An SO is a valuable powerpant, don't think short term.

[HSSS427]

So, if i assume the worst - what is the most likely damage that would have occurred? In short, where do I start? Would the rings go first?, bearings? I'm a bit puzzled that the oil temp didn't shoot up along with the water and there wasn't anything I detected in the way the engine was running when I shut it off. I'm also wondering why the oil would blow out the breather?

The engine was just completely rebuilt by Keith Craft - 300 miles on it. So, don't want to un-do the "serious cash" I've already spent and make a mountain out of a mole hill while trying to figure this one out. Then again, I don't want to miss the problem and make things even worse.

Appreciate any good diagnostic tips to determine the root of the problem.
Thanks!

[CWCobra]

Hsss,
You should call Keith Craft immediately. They have am excellent reputation and stand behind their work. Thats my 2cents.

Conrad

[Rick Parker]

Contact your engine builder. He will have solid advice for you after you convey the circumstances to him.

[jschiller]

I would remove the belts, valve covers and sparkplugs, then try to rotate the crank in both directions with a breaker bar, watch the valve train. If still locked up and nothing obvious in the valvetrain, remove and cut open the oil filter looking for metal particles, if none, then drain the oil and remove the pan. Check the pan for any chunks of metal too big to foul the filter, drop the oil pump and shaft and try the breaker bar again. If it still will not turn, I would suspect pistons, rings or valvetrain, if you didn't lose oil pressure or hear knocking from the big end or piston slap before shutting down the last time, I doubt its bearings. You could pull the main caps to check those but if its locked up, you probably can't pull all the rod caps. Thats about all I can think of to check with out major disassembly or pulling the engine. Good luck.

[cobred]

The oil comming out of the breather is the least of the problem, probably from the heat. I would take off the belt and see if the engine turns over. If not, drain the oil into a clean container and look for a metalic color, you probably have a magnetic drain plug. Check it for metal. That may tell the whole story. If you do have metal call Keith and ask his advice. Best of luck.

[FUNFER2]

Pull the plugs & check for electrode damage. Remove the valve covers and make sure a valve hasn't dropped and check the springs. If all looks well, test the spring pressures. Ask a buddy, engine shop or rent a lighted scope and look into each cylinder, check for any ring, piston, skirt, and wall damage, also look into the intake/exhaust ports. Take the oil pan off and look for a spun bearing, at higher rpm, that can happen. If no damage, remove all the bearings for inspection. Try this before removing the engine. Hopefully everything is minor, and I'll be praying to the side oiler gods for you.
Let me know what you find.

(Funny story. We check the valve lash every week on the sprint car. Two weeks ago, I removed the valve covers, checked the spring pressures keepers ect... removed the headers & left the ports open so I could inspect the ports, cylinders ect., Next morning I couldn't believe I did not cover the ports with duct tape. I don't know why but, decided to use my scope again, what did I find..........a alcohol soaked, JUNE BUG in #4 exhaust port ! LOL ! I blew & sucked up what was left. Who knows if it would have caused any damage but at least, a piece of mind. Moral of the story, duct tape has many uses and maintenance...maintenance & more maintenance.)

[Excaliber]

120 C, all though not great, should NOT be catastrophic and should NOT require a major overhaul again.

Alloy heads I'm assuming, it's possible you blew head gasket and water is in one of the pistons, don't panic. Pull the plugs, valve covers, etc as mentioned above, turn it by hand, clear things out. If water is in there oil it up good and get it to crank over. I bet worse case scenario is pull the heads and replace the gaskets. The rings, rods, etc. should be still be fine. Might have warped a head, or two, resurface, re-install and get back in the ball game.

[PatBuckley]

If it is hydrolocked and you tried to bump start it you have some serious internal problems.....

Moral - if it won't turn over with the starter do not try to bump start it.

[Cracker]

Like Pat said, if it is hydrolocked and you bump started it you could have bent a rod. I find it odd that you threw two belts on successive trips. My cars have never thrown so much as one and my rpm's have exceeded 6k (try 7k).

Is the thermostat in backwards? Did you fill the engine with coolant via the intake (not the expansion tank)?

[Mike Simard]

Argh...It sounds like you got the advice you need so far, you'll probably want to start with the valve covers off, plugs out and turn the engine by hand looking for the obvious. If the plugs or pistons as seen through the spark plug holes don't have obvious problems and it turns freely you could use a compression gage and look for odd cylinders. It's good to be an optomist but hard sometimes. You could always hope that you merely blew a head gasket, water seeped into the cylinder before you tried to start it but didn't actually damage parts, just prevented the engine from turning. If you need any help or tools just let me know.
BTW, throwing belts or blowing oil by themselves might not mean anything. Cars like this often wind up with pulleys that don't line up well and can throw belts. If these were some of the first times of heavy throttle you could have had blowby from still fresh rings that could cause oil to come out of breathers, either one of those problems could be unrelated and possibly unimportant.

[Power Surge]

Well, 120c is 248f, and that's definitely hot enough to do some damage in an older design motor. The oil out the breather is most likely because the overheated motor thinned the crap out of the oil (part of oil's job is engine cooling). The thinner oil is much easier to work it's way out a breather. But also, thinned out hot oil doesn't lubricate as well, and could have caused some good galling inside the motor.

Did YOU shut the car off and coast to a stop, or did the CAR shut itself off and then you coasted to a stop? It's not odd that the motor seized, but it is odd if you shut the car off with it running, and then it siezed just sitting there.

One thing I can say, is that if you tried to pop start it, and it actually locked the drivetrain up, that's a major siezure on the motor. A seized ring or bearing isn't going to hold enough to lock the whole drivetrain up. There's gotta be something else going on here.

But I agree with the others, first thing you should do is call Keith.

[Cracker]

I spoke with Scott this morning - it's not Keith's fault. It appears to be a rookie mistake on the owner's part.

Truth be known I did the same thing a few years ago - it sucks but I know were not alone.

[blykins]

Okay, so what happened?

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Cracker

I spoke with Scott this morning - it's not Keith's fault. It appears to be a rookie mistake on the owner's part.

Truth be known I did the same thing a few years ago - it sucks but I know were not alone.

Okay, AND???? What did you find?

BTW, I doubt anyone was putting the blame on KC, it was obvious to me that it wasn't a build problem, just that the builder should have been the first one aware of any issues.

[FUNFER2]

If all goes well, be sure to include a "leak down" test. Do all the jobs on the list before, turning over the engine, even by hand.

[cobra]

perhaps the starter rest in and is blocked..........if you are a lucky guy.

Greetings fom Switzerland
Walter

[lineslinger]

Yeah......but what was the rookie mistake,...... nobodys going to dump on Scott, but I would like to know so I don't committ the same error myself.