Help with my broken 406

[Monster]

Last month a valve broke in my relatively stock 406 and in the process it cracked the cylinder. Local machine shop with Ford & FE experiance is doing the machine work and is sleeving the broken cyl. The rest of my bores are worn up to .006 so I need to have the block bored as well to at least 4.155 (.020 over). So I decided this woud be a good time to pump-up my engine with more performance.

Now for the problems:

406 is unique and I've checked all piston manufactures and 406 pistons are a custom piece at ($600-$1000) for a set with pins. I've been told that if I can go to .030 I can use an off the shelf piston but I will need to hone my rods. (opinions?)

I just purchased a set of Eagle rods (H-beem) which I was told are "better" than stock, I've now been told that the stock rods are as good as the after market (opinions?)

I've been asking machining questions along the way on what I need to do to get my engine back together and it's has been getting more and more confusing depending on who I'm talking to (all respected builders which is making it more confusing).

I've read and been told that when boring 427FE's you need to use a deck plate. Does this include 406 which is a thicker casting (Yes/No) (If yes is the headgasket used when installing the deckplates?)

When an engine is sleeved does it need to be align bored?

What I want is to get my block machined with what's "needed" and not over-kill with work thats nice to do but probably not necessary.


thanks,
Mike

[jmarsey]

Mike,

Sounds like maybe you're second guessing your machine shop? A little bit? Or, they don't have those types of answers for you?

Maybe you need to talk to someone like Tom Lucas at FE Specialties. I can tell you first hand, he is a very knowledgeable and meticulous engine builder. When it comes to engine building, I always recommend working with a professional rather than winging it on your own and piecemealing information.

Tom not only fixed a complex problem with my engine, he found an unrelated catastrophe waiting to happen that no one else realized.

Good luck, John

[ted]

Unless you check that you've got a 'thick' 406 block, boring it 0.100" over is a push to make the 427 bore. Sonic testing would validate just how much you've got to work with in that regard. I'd recommend just going the 0.030" over route on the bore and making a stroker motor out of what you have. With a 428 crankshaft, you've got a 433 CID and if using the SCAT 4.250" stroke crank, you've got 462 CID. The older rods have been around long enough now to be heavily fatigued and I'd also recommend upgrading to new rods. My personal preference is to use new H-Beam rods if only to just to get the old rods out of the engine. When balancing, just specify internal balance in order to keep flywheel hassles down the road out of the picture.

Like some of the other comments, your machine shop should guide you on some of the other options available to you.

Good luck.

[blykins]

You should always use a torque plate.

Head gasket is not needed. The idea here is to stress the block while boring/honing the way it would be when the heads were bolted to it.

Aftermarket rods are stronger than 40 year old rods. Especially with today's H-beam rods and ARP fasteners.

The block will not need to be align bored unless you've added/switched caps....but it may need to be checked and honed.

Diamond has a set of off the shelf .030" pistons for your application. They'll be around $550 plus rings.

BTW, .020" would be 4.150".

If you like how peppy the engine is now (quick, high revving), don't stroke it.

[Barry_R]

First off is that we can likely get a Diamond "non-stocking" but catalog piston for the 406 for somewhere near the lower end of your price range. They're pretty nice parts to boot. And they are available in a 4.155 bore without needing to alter your rods.

I much prefer the aftermarket rods for exactly the reason the other gent mentioned - - 30 years of fatigue will take a toll that you cannot see or measure. There's no way to know if or when they're gonna "sign off". Cheap insurance.

On a sleeved engine I'd really want to use a torque plate and at least check the line hone. The sleeving process disturbs a lot of metal and adds a press fit into an area previously not stressed in that fashion. Things are bound to move as a result. Sleeved engines work perfectly fine (I ran one for years with five sleeves), but you do need to check that stuff after doing it.

Barry R.
Survival Motorsports

[Monster]

John- Ive talked to Tom regarding pistons, but since I'm building and someone else is machining he didn't seem to want to provide much information. As for second guessing the machine shop. It's more like getting a second opinion before an operation. That said, I may change "doctors" if I haven't been hearing the right proceedure's.

Ted- I wasn't considering boring to 427, only that most recomend that when boring a 427 that a torque plate should be used because of the thin cyl. walls. My question was "is this a concern with 406 since it has thicker walls"?

Blykins/Barry - I've been talking to Diamond and they are on the top of the list right now for pistons. That's where the 4.155 came from (it's the size of their .020-406 piston which is not stocked and cost about $620). I didn't ask about .030 to see if that was off the shelf but it's worth a phone call to find out.

I agree with all on the rods, which is why I bought a new set of Eagles, but I had yet another conversation today with another expert FE builder who said "you don't need change the stock rods, they are just as good as the new ones for most applications [unless your racing]" had me questioning myself.

It seems the more I ask the more "opinions" their are on what's needed and whats not.. so far I'm going with:

Torque plate's for boring (they could only help)
H-beams (already bought and the reason the engine broke was due to another components fatigue, not necessarily "cheap insurance" but they are insurance
Diamond pistons- The alternative would be $200 less but it's about piece of mind and the alternative was by the same source that said I didn't need to change the rods

Thanks,
MIke

[lineslinger]

I used both Diamond pistons and Eagle H beams in my build.
A factor not mentioned is the component to component weight factor.The Diamond pistons I used needed zero correction. The weight of each piston was almost duplicate to the next. Same with the eagle rods, almost duplicate weight on each one.
I reallly think a new set of rods wuld be in order. Think about the advances in metal composition and machining these days as opposed to even 10 years ago, plus they are new thus eliminating te fatigue factor.

[ted]

Originally Posted by Monster

Ted- I wasn't considering boring to 427, only that most recomend that when boring a 427 that a torque plate should be used because of the thin cyl. walls. My question was "is this a concern with 406 since it has thicker walls"?

I mentioned the 0.100" cut only because some 406's can actually take it and have a better cylinder wall thickness than a stock 427. I've got a 406 service block that's like that. The '62 models on the other hand were not as liberal in cylinder wall thickness.

I still like to torque plate hone the cylinders as it does promote a quicker ring seal. Thicker walls do to a small degree help in retaining cylinder wall integrity during honing but torque plates still help. Another thing to keep in mind is if the shop that's doing the cylinder walls hones it fast or with heavy pressure, you can end up with egg shaped cylinder walls regardless of using a torque plate. This is because the cylinder wall themselves are not concentric or even in thickness and a heavy cut will create more heating at the front and rear of the cylinders versus the top and bottom. For this reason, I like a very light hone on a cooled block for the last couple of thousandts.

[Monster]

Well, It's been about 3mos. since I first posted on this thread and I thought it was about time for an update.

FIRST: I would like to thank the members of this forum for the information that they have directly and indirectly provided (I used the search a number of times during various phases of this rebuild and the comments and pictures came in handy on more than one occasion) so THANKS TO ALL MY FOLLOW FE OWNERS/Contributors here.........

So here's where I'm at: I stuck with my original machinist and I'm glad I did, he did an excellent job. I had the block bored and decked.

The engine before breaking was pretty stock with only a mild Isky cam and streetmaster intake.

I went with
Custom Diamond pistons w/file fit Power Seal rings (10.5 to 1 comp)
Eagle rods
Comp Cams: 294S cam w/springs & lifters, roller chain & gear, roller rockers
Edelbrock 60069 heads (portmatched & ported)
MSD Pro-Billet dist.
Clevite & Felpro for bearings & gaskets
I have a 2x4 intake, but I will go with the single Streemaster & 750 untill I have broken in the engine.

Here's link to the before & current progress pictures: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdvmon.../ph//my_photos

I should have the final pieces back on and the car running this weekend .

Thanks again!!
Mike

[Rick Parker]

Mike: I really like the "Buisiness like appearance" of your engine. Good things take time to get done unless you can throw tons of cash at a problem. IMO as the owner of one of these beasts, there is a very good personal satisfaction to getting a problem resolved and knowing what it took to solve the problem.

[Monster]

Rick,

Thanks. I have a set of polished fin aluminum 427 valve covers, but with the new rockers they don't fit. The chrome valve cover were a bit to much "bling" for me, so I decided to try the painted look.

On the build, alot of the time has been deciding on the parts (reading pro/cons on this forum), then waiting for them all to come in. I'm with you on the personal side, I prefer to build my own engines and have the control and knowlege of whats been done and how it was done.

well, back to finishing things up..................

Mike

[Carnut427]

Mike, you made wise decisions and your engine should run accordingly. Best of luck with it.

Dan

[Excaliber]

I don't buy into the logic that 'old' parts should be case aside. A 30 year old doesn't automatically mean it's junk. It's just as likely a new rod has a casting flaw. How you gonna know? Xray? Check for hardness, straightness, etc. etc.? Sure, like we gotta a NASCAR budget for engine building. Your taking a risk, less risk for new part than for an old part? OK, how about a little common sense here, COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS.

Torgue plates MUST be used for the bore? Yeah right, like everyone did THAT back in the day! What you gonna do with your motor? COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS. HELLO!!! Align bore\hone? Sure why not, thats a SAFE answer!

The EASY and ALWAYS politically correct and LAZY 'no risk of looking like a fool' answer is: Just buy everything new, let the BIG dogs build it, pony up the bucks, leave no part unmachined and sign the dam check. Heck with the guy trying to save a few bucks, call HIM the fool.

Sheessssh, whatever happened to building your own dam engine your way within a REASONABLE budget and driving it like you built it? Now if your gonna turn it 7000 grand and run NASCAR, you might want to get your check book out and let someone else build it (weanie that you are).

My custom pistons ran almost a $1000, ouch!!! Believe me I did a cost benefit analysis a million times over that one!

Hmmm, flat tappet cam eh? Now thats a MAN's cam, well done!


(Hey, it's just a rant, tongue in cheek, some truth may or may not exist. If the shoe fits.... ),
Tis better to build it on a budget and blow it up than to never have built it at all!

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by blykins

You should always use a torque plate.

Head gasket is not needed. The idea here is to stress the block while boring/honing the way it would be when the heads were bolted to it.

Aftermarket rods are stronger than 40 year old rods. Especially with today's H-beam rods and ARP fasteners.

The block will not need to be align bored unless you've added/switched caps....but it may need to be checked and honed.

Diamond has a set of off the shelf .030" pistons for your application. They'll be around $550 plus rings.

BTW, .020" would be 4.150".

If you like how peppy the engine is now (quick, high revving), don't stroke it.

I agree with all of this, except that we use the head gasket with the torque plates.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I don't buy into the logic that 'old' parts should be case aside. A 30 year old doesn't automatically mean it's junk. It's just as likely a new rod has a casting flaw. How you gonna know? Xray? Check for hardness, straightness, etc. etc.? Sure, like we gotta a NASCAR budget for engine building. Your taking a risk, less risk for new part than for an old part? OK, how about a little common sense here, COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS.

I'd rather have the customer run modern, improved parts, than to chance a vintage part breaking.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Torgue plates MUST be used for the bore? Yeah right, like everyone did THAT back in the day! What you gonna do with your motor? COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS. HELLO!!! Align bore\hone? Sure why not, thats a SAFE answer!

It's not the safe answer, it's the RIGHT answer. The block distorts when you bolt the heads on. ESPECIALLY thin FE blocks. Why would you bore something true when it's not at it's natural position? That's like cutting a brake rotor on a lathe with a bent shaft. Sure, the car will still stop, but it won't be right.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

The EASY and ALWAYS politically correct and LAZY 'no risk of looking like a fool' answer is: Just buy everything new, let the BIG dogs build it, pony up the bucks, leave no part unmachined and sign the dam check. Heck with the guy trying to save a few bucks, call HIM the fool.

Sheessssh, whatever happened to building your own dam engine your way within a REASONABLE budget and driving it like you built it? Now if your gonna turn it 7000 grand and run NASCAR, you might want to get your check book out and let someone else build it (weanie that you are).

This isn't 1965. Tecnology has vastly improved since then. To NOT take advantage of better parts and better machining methods is retarted. It's ok when you are 17 and rebuilding the 200 horse 350 in your 77 Camaro yourself with a Summit rebuild kit in your driveway. These aren't the motors and the cars to be taking chances on with a driveway build. Sure, they did it that way in the 60s. That's why almost every 427 you come across nowadays has a nice patch in the side of the block, or is in need of rebuild. You might say that YOUR home built 427 is doing fine Ernie, but even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then. It's 2006, come join us.

[Excaliber]

Of course your right Sal, but what about the guy who has a limited budget? THATS the point. I did all of the above on mine, did it need it? Well as hard as I drive the car, in my case, it did. Don't forget to have the rotating assembly balanced, which ran about $300 on mine (including the pressure plate). Had I used the original pistons I would have considered NOT doing the balance, for instance. With an unlimited budget perhaps I would have gone with a new crank, theory being the 30 year old crank was 'weak'. You just got to draw the line somewhere.

For a mild build on a budget and driven within reason theres a lot of "stuff" that could be left out.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Of course your right Sal, but what about the guy who has a limited budget? THATS the point. I did all of the above on mine, did it need it? Well as hard as I drive the car, in my case, it did. Don't forget to have the rotating assembly balanced, which ran about $300 on mine (including the pressure plate). Had I used the original pistons I would have considered NOT doing the balance, for instance. With an unlimited budget perhaps I would have gone with a new crank, theory being the 30 year old crank was 'weak'. You just got to draw the line somewhere.

For a mild build on a budget and driven within reason theres a lot of "stuff" that could be left out.

Believe me, I know about limited budgets. That's the main reason I have a 390 in my car right now.

And honestly, doing it the "right" way really doesn't break the bank. I'm not talking about $2500 billet cranks or exotic parts or what not. H-beam rods cost barely more than buying a set of originals and having them reconditioned. Boring/honing with a torque plate is only a few bucks more as well. Hell, even buying a new SCAT cast crank costs only a few hundred bucks, and it way better than an original. You don't need to break the bank to do it right.

[FFR428]

Mike the 406 looks great! Very rare engine you have there and i hope it treats you right. I sold mine (C3AE-D with Sept 62 date code) recently to fund a 427 build I'm planning. i was really torn about selling it but it's going into an original 406 Galaxie so it will have a happy new home. Best of luck and the pics look great!

G.

[Monster]

So, I go away for the weekend and this is what I come back to...... I was expecting my kids to make a mess at the house (which they didn't) but I DIDN'T EXPECT THE CHILDISH BEHAVOUR ON THIS THREAD!!

John Marsey your right on , I'm just trying to get my car back on the road with some updates.

Excaliber: your comment "Sheessssh, whatever happened to building your own dam engine your way within a REASONABLE budget and driving it like you built it?"

I budgeted $3000 for my rebuild.
here's my current breakdown:
"semi" custom pistons- Diamond part 41310 with pins/moly rings/spiral locks shipped to CA $715.56
Eagle rods (CC member) $508 shipped
Edelbrock heads w/ Comp Roller rockers & Melling HV pump, MSD Pro-Billet (BACC member) $1100
Bearings, Cam set (gearscam lifters springs), gaskets $474.20
Machine Work: (block sleeved, bored, decked, cam bearings, crank turned) $650
Misc: tools, fluids,etc $100
Sold old heads iron ($450)
Total: $3097.76

I do ALL of my own "build" work (aside from the block machine work which is where I was seeking most advise from this forum). The parts decissions were done thru research, I talk directly to ALL of the "big dogs" on parts and mods.
On pistons (IMHO) there really doesn't appear to be a difference in quality between JE, Ross, Arias, Diamond. They all make quality pieces, have great references (race proven) I selected Diamond because of lead time & price (the fact that Genisis uses them in their block also helped). On whether or not to re-use 40 year old I-beams here's what Gessford say's on their web site "We Like to Install Eagle Rods in the Cobra engines we build for all the right reasons! RELIABILITY FOR THE BUCKS !"

Thanks to all, I'll let you know how things progress as I'm ready for break in.

Mike "monster"

[Excaliber]

Monster, my apologies to you for getting SO far off track on this thread.

Sounds you like have a great plan on a nice budget! I wish you well with your build. All though I've built many engines over the years it was usually because 'they needed it', just another job that had to be done.

But my ERA engine build was different, MUCH different. I really enjoyed it and still get such a kick out of firing it up and thinking, "Cool, I built it"! If I blow it up tommorow, it's OK, no regrets, only cherished memories! It is without a doubt, the most significant automotive related exprience I have ever had.