More Surge / Expansion Tank questions

[PaulProe]

The original setup had the main return line coming out of the surge tank on the drivers side and into the radiator.

You can see a picture of CSX3056 here: http://www.csxinfo.net/detail/14.JPG.html

The surge tank also had a second smaller line, (not the overflow) going to the upper left (pass) corner. It looks to be about a 3/8" id line.

What is the purpose of this second smaller line. I don't see it on the replica cars with FE engines.

Sorry for all the newbie questions, it's hard for a Chevy/Mopar guy to learn about FoMoCo, but again, thanks for your help.

Paul

[Excaliber]

The second small line to the top of the radiator is a good call! It allows air to bleed out of the top of radiator back to the overflow tank. Instead of a bleed line, my radiator has a manual vent valve in that position. IF you DON'T bleed the air from there it WILL get trapped in the upper portion of the radiator. This WILL result in an overheating condition, no biggie if you bleed it yourself and one less hose to worry about rupturing. If I was 'racing' I wouldn't use the 3/8ths line, I'd bleed manually.

[PaulProe]

I kind of suspected that was what it was for, but now am even more confused?

How do current replicas get away with not using one? Wouldn't the radiator still have the same deadspot in it?

Look over the pictures, I didn't see a single new FE setup that was using one.

Paul

[FUNFER2]

me too!.....me too !
What do you use as a manual vent ? Any pics bud ?
Also, why were the cobras changing it to the drivers side rather than the factory cars (Galaxy and the like) from the passenger side ? Seems like most for sale, you have to go to the extent of changing sides.

[Carnut427]

Enough of the air works it's way back up the top radiator hose or gets flushed through the engine under normal conditions. The space above the upper radiator hose is so small it's of no concern. I don't have a bleeder hose or manual bleeder and never had a problem in 12 years.

Dan

[Excaliber]

Dan while that may be true in SOME cases, it was not so with my ERA. Until I figured out what the heck was the problem I was running hotter than I liked. I can bleed a substantial quantity of air out the top of my radiator!

[for27]

Hey PaulProe and Excaliber,
I have a Unique 427 for the last 3 years that has an old surge tank without
the second line you are discussing. At the last Unique homecoming this past May I saw a new Unique 427 with a stainless surge tank with the second line in discussion here. After having a senior moment where I thought about trading my original old tank for a stainless to enjoy the possibility of relieving my overheating problem, I realized there were people lining up to glam up my old tank in a heartbeat, end of senior moment !
So Excaliber, how often and when do you bleed if you are in a non-track situation and you start to heat up ? I'm open to any suggestion that will help.

Lou in Marietta

[double ugly]

I have three on the surge tank from Southern Automotive. The one on the right goes back to the top of the radiator the small one on the left drops down and pukes the water out the bottom of the engine bay. That is the way all CSXs were, I believe.
John

[Carnut427]

Ernie, medium riser intakes have an "extra" 1/4" pipe hole right behind the thermostat. When I fill my engine, I always pull the plug out of this hole and fill until coolant comes out of the hole. This way there's never an air bubble in the engine that has to "burp" out when you first start the motor. Does the high riser intake have a similar hole? If it doesn't, perhaps that's why I haven't had the problem and you have...

Dan

[Tom of VA]

What is the canister which is plumbed to the rear of the intake. On my car I have a PCV valve hear returning to the carb. Same fitting on these pics goes to a black can with the cap. Anyone know what that is?
Thanks

[Carnut427]

The black can is called a "puke tank", and is used for blowby and oil forced out when roadracing. If you have the stamped steel "valley pan" under your intake, you can usually run a PCV valve in the rear location, as the valley pan keeps the oil under it for the most part so just blowby goes out the rear hole. If you're running hydraulic lifters, and especially hydraulic roller lifters where the valley pan won't fit, it's best to block that opening and run the PCV valve from a valve cover because too much oil is flying around in the valley area, causing the PCV valve to suck oil as well as blowby.

Dan

[Tom of VA]

Thanks,
But didn't the valley pan come stock in all hydraulic FEs?

[Carnut427]

To be honest I don't know when it showed up, but I do know that sometimes it's left out, either because people forget it or because they don't realize it's importance if you want to run a breather, PCV or whatever out of the rear opening. It won't fit without major cutting when running roller lifters, and if you run solid rollers with pressure oiling to the rollers (such as Crower HIPPOs), that oil comes from the same passages the hydraulic rollers get their oil, so you've got to cap the rear intake hole when running those too.

Dan

[Tom of VA]

Ok, so if I'm using oem style hydraulic lifters with original adjustable rockers, I can use the valley pan and the rear port with a threaded PCV valve?

[Carnut427]

Theoretically yes, but I wouldn't. Ford put the PCV in the valve cover around '65. You can certainly try it; it'll smoke (burn oil) from the oil getting to the PCV valve and/or there'll be oil leakage if there's a problem. If it doesn't smoke and no oil leakage around the PCV valve you're OK. Otherwise move the PCV to the valve cover, and always use a baffle.

Dan

[Tom of VA]

So the problem is that oil is prone to splash into the PCV in that location? Is that the only concern? My valve covers have no opening.

[Carnut427]

In either place you're going to have to install a baffle, which will probably involve drilling a hole with a 1 1/8" hole saw.

Available here, halfway down the page. Don't pay attention to the 1 1/4" dimension; a 1 1/8" hole saw makes the right sized hole.

The problem with this baffle (and one just like it from Mr Gasket) is the PCV valve is too small to fit in it; you'll have to purchase another grommet from your local parts house (usually located by the PCV valves) to fit the PCV, and use a belt sander to modify the OD so it'll fit in the baffle. A grommet with a lip on it looks best. I wish there was an easier way to install a baffle, but I haven't found one. A baffle is the last line of defense in keeping the oil out and letting the blowby get through to the PCV valve.
If putting a PCV valve in a valve cover, find an original valve cover for location of the PCV valve, as it has to go between the valves between 2 cylinders and located so it won't hit the rocker shaft.

Dan

[Tom of VA]

Dan,
Thanks. I have the feeling I will end up losing the chrome valve covers and getting some aluminum ones with the correct opening for the PCV. The enigine just had 2 vented caps before I sent it out to be rebuilt. One at the rear of the intake where I plan to use a pcv and the other on top of the filler neck which passes through the intake. I should be picking up my motor in a two weeks, maybe the machinist will give me some input too. I don't like the idea of just using vents with no PCV.

[Carnut427]

There are also breathers available that have a PCV valve in them that fit in the baffles if you'd rather keep your chrome valve covers. You'd still have to drill the 1 1/8" hole with a hole saw (available at your hardware store). HSSS427 has a set shown in the picture in this post. You don't have to use the braided line, fuel line will work fine.

Dan