Genesis 427 side oiler

Archrms · #1 (**permalink**) 09-20-2006, 08:52 PM

Has anyone had any experience with the new iron Genesis 427 s/o block? I had heard they had problems with the early ones, but that the problems have been fixed. Are these blocks worth looking into, or is it better to just find and rebuild a 60's era original?

ffindling · #2 (**permalink**) 09-20-2006, 09:34 PM

Well known FE builder Barry Rabotnick of Survival Motorsports does his builds
using Genesis blocks. The FE he built for the Jeg's Engine Masters competition
last year which dyno'd out to 752 hp was also Genesis based. He can probably
tell you as much about Genesis blocks as anyone can. His number is (248) 438-6900.

....Fred

Carnut427 · #3 (**permalink**) 09-20-2006, 10:16 PM

Even the early ones were OK; they just needed a little extra work, which was done by whomever you bought the block from.

Dan

jwoodard · #4 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 03:30 AM

I'm running one built by Keith Craft and am very pleased with the engine. Keith has probably built more of these than anyone, give him a call. He advertises on this site.

ffindling · #5 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 03:46 AM

Tom Lucas of FE Specialties, another advertiser on this site, also uses Genesis blocks.

....Fred

427SnakeSC · #6 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 04:38 AM

Keith Craft will be using a Genesis or Pond block for my build. When I talked with him last, he told me the Genesis blocks were good, but needed a little work. I have been told the Genesis block is a very close duplicate in appearance to the original blocks.

Archrms · #7 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 06:34 AM

Thanks for the feedback so far. I have spoken with both KC and Perormance Engineering (as well as a few others) regarding the Genesis blocks, and have gotten some good info, however, I was hoping to get some feedback from the people who are actually using them in their cars. I'd like to know how they like the performance it provides and how it is holding up over time.

ceslaw · #8 (**permalink**) 09-27-2006, 08:14 PM

I installed a Genesis crate engine in my Everett Morrison Gen IV. Took delivery of the engine in February, 2006. Fired it up on the completed chassis in July, 2006. Started right up and ran great. I have run it several times as we fine tuned various issues, like some minor coolant and oil leaks, none of which were the fault of the engine. Car is still under construction - waiting for EM to deliver the body - so can't give a more detailed report yet. Check out my gallery for some pictures. (key words: Genesis or Everett Morrison)

I picked up the engine in Indianapolis on a cold day in February where it was assembled and watched it being dyno tested. 500 + Hp and 500 + pounds of torque. That was a fun day!

I was very pleased with the personal service and construction updates provided while the engine was being built.

Chuck
CESLAW

decooney · #9 (**permalink**) 09-27-2006, 09:06 PM

I've only read people using the iron blocks from Genesis and wondering if anyone has actually tried one of the alumuminum Genisis blocks yet; and any feedback?

Excaliber · #10 (**permalink**) 09-27-2006, 11:05 PM

Shelby alloy blocks also required a lot of machining, at least the 'early ones' did. Sounds typical of a new block on the market as the bugs get worked out.

427SnakeSC · #11 (**permalink**) 09-28-2006, 03:58 AM

Great looking 427 Chuck (CESLAW)! I hope mine looks as good!

Barry_R · #12 (**permalink**) 09-28-2006, 05:50 PM

I just shipped my Engine Masters Challenge entry for this year off to New York for the contest. This is another Genesis based piece. Rules for this year include 434 cubes, 10.5:1 compression max, mufflers, 14x3" air filter, and running on 91 octane.

The local DTS testing delivered 685 peak HP @ 6500, 587 peak TQ, and a solid additive average (TQ+HP) "score" over 1000. Only time will tell if thats enough to make the finals - but its a heck of a nice little motor.

So far the Genesis parts have performed well for me....

Archrms · #13 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 08:18 AM

Visually, the Genesis blocks are supposed to be an exact copy of the original 427's, and have a 1965 date code on them. If they are visually correct, is there any reason other than "authenticity" that makes an original block any better than a new Genesis? I also understand that the new blocks are drilled for use with hydraulic cams. Any opinions would be appreciated, as I am trying to decide if having an original 427 is worth the price tag.

RICK LAKE · #14 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 10:47 AM

Archrms what are you going to do with the car? Show, Run&Gun, Orginial to spec, or beat the crap out of it every day? Ponds and Genesis are cheaper the a Shelby block and more correct. Shelby block is stronger and better engineered in my opinion. Any of these 3 blocks will work fine for you. How deep is your pocket? IF YOU CAN FIND a 427so block the price will be the same or more an the Genesis or Ponds. It will either be a service block or used with an overbore done to it. 427 motors are thin walled to start .030" over is the safe max on oem blocks. A crate motor may be your answer. If you want to talk on this call me 732-254-3536 after 7:00pm. I am in Jersey.

Rick Lake

Carnut427 · #15 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archrms

...is there any reason other than "authenticity" that makes an original block any better than a new Genesis?...

Absolutely not. My first motor was an original SO. A cylinder wall broke while roadracing, which siezed the piston, which broke the rod, etc. etc. It wasn't a pretty picture, and was only bored .015 over. My Genesis is bored .075 over the original 427 spec and can be bored .060 more. They just didn't have the technology to build them any thicker originally...and yes, the Genesis has the C5AE code cast on it as do the originals. IMO, it's a no-brainer. I wouldn't waste my money on an original block when something better is available.

Dan

RedCSX1 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 12:22 PM

I started with a 427 Center oiler and two flat cams later, I said to heck with it and bought a Pond Aluminum 482 short block from Keith. Much better off than getting an original. With that said, machine work still needs to be done to these blocks to correct certain manufacturing flaws and you want to go with someone who has experience with these motors like Keith Craft or Mike at Mitech. http://mitechengines.com/index.htm And of course Barry of Survivalmotorsports.com who already responded to your question. In fact you can also include George of www.gessford.com (or 402-463-9844)

Excaliber · #17 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 12:41 PM

Well you can't blame the flat cams on the block, come on!

Interesting question: If a modern block looks the same why would go with a real one? Why would you buy a real Rolex when you can get a knockoff that 'looks real' and has a fine Timex motor inside it?

Some of us WANT the 'real thing'. The side oilers were designed for racing, for extreme rpm. Heck thats the block they used for the SOHC which turned 8000 plus rpm. It's not the BLOCK thats weak, it's the way it's BUILT that makes the difference.

Shelby alloy 427's blow up and make no mistake, if you don't build it right you can blow up ANY block!

Why don't you go with a 351W and slap some 427 valve covers on it! Why don't you go with a 352 or 390, heck they LOOK the same and there really cheap too. Why not go with a center oiler and save a bundle over a side oiler? Really tough to tell the difference. WHY? Because I know what's under my hood and that matters to ME.

RedCSX1 · #18 (**permalink**) 10-23-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Well you can't blame the flat cams on the block, come on!

Interesting question: If a modern block looks the same why would go with a real one? Why would you buy a real Rolex when you can get a knockoff that 'looks real' and has a fine Timex motor inside it?

Some of us WANT the 'real thing'. The side oilers were designed for racing, for extreme rpm. Heck thats the block they used for the SOHC which turned 8000 plus rpm. It's not the BLOCK thats weak, it's the way it's BUILT that makes the difference.

Shelby alloy 427's blow up and make no mistake, if you don't build it right you can blow up ANY block!

Why don't you go with a 351W and slap some 427 valve covers on it! Why don't you go with a 352 or 390, heck they LOOK the same and there really cheap too. Why not go with a center oiler and save a bundle over a side oiler? Really tough to tell the difference. WHY? Because I know what's under my hood and that matters to ME.

LET ME CLEAR IT UP FOR YOUR ERNIE.

63 Center oiler = solid lifter cam

I did not want to take another chance on getting inferior lifters with a soild lifter cam for a solid lifter only motor.

Therefore I went with a Hyd. Roller in a all aluminum Pond block.

The Pond and Gen versions of the 427 SO are much stronger motor than the original. Thicker walls and more internal bracing.

Carnut427 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliber

...Some of us WANT the 'real thing'...

If you had been paying attention you would have noted that Archrms's question was "...is there any reason other than "authenticity" that makes an original block any better than a new Genesis?"...
If you want "the real thing", great. Buy one. Some of us on the other hand, have tried the "real thing" and, while deeply greatful that Ford brought out this wonderful engine, are tickled pink that better versions are available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliber

...make no mistake, if you don't build it right you can blow up ANY block!

As though a cylinder wall breaking has anything to do with how it was built rather than core shift causing thin cylinder walls. It's virtually impossible (never use that word!) for a Genesis block to have this problem unless taken out to the max, which is .135 over the stock 427 bore...and you can always sleeve it back to 4.250 and start all over again!

Dan

Anthony · #20 (**permalink**) 10-24-2006, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnut427

My first motor was an original SO. A cylinder wall broke while roadracing, which siezed the piston, which broke the rod, etc. etc. It wasn't a pretty picture, and was only bored .015 over. My Genesis is bored .075 over the original 427 spec and can be bored .060 more. They just didn't have the technology to build them any thicker originally...

I don't think that it's not because Ford didn't have the technology, but in the basic design of the engine. The "original" 427 had water jackets completely surrounding each cylinder, for even cooling. The Genesis has siamesed cylinders, that is no coolant pasing between the cylinders. If Ford wanted the 427 this way, I'm sure they could have cast it the same way as the Genesis. I'm not saying one way is better than the other.



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