Stuck Rings?

[Jon Miller]

Hi Guys,
After 10 years of building I finally started the car and I've got a problem......pressure in the crank case, and smoke blowing out of the oil fill cap.

The motor is a 428 SCJ that I bought from the original owner(a Friend). It had 30,000 miles on a rebuild, and had been sitting for about five years when I got(15 years total since last run). I took it apart down to the short block and everything looked good. It still had the hone marks in the cylinders, and the main bearings looked good. I replaced the cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump, distributor, and installed Edelbrock heads, and 2x4 intake. It's .30 over, and has TRW forged pistons.

Is it possible that one of the rings is stuck and not sealing properly? So far it has not been over 2000 RPM. I'm considering an "Italian Tune-up" to see if high RPM might get things Un-stuck....if it's even possible for things to be "stuck" in the first place.

The other option is pulling the motor and replacing the rings. Can I get away with just rings and a new gasket set, or will some machine work need to be done too?

Thanks!
Jon

[spl310]

You say it HASN'T been over 2000 rpm? I thought that the cam needed to be seated by running it at about 2500 rpms for a minimum of 25 minutes or serious wear would result.

A couple of questions though. Did you stagger the rings when reinstalling the pistons? Were they prelubed?

[Excaliber]

Marvel Mystery Oil...

[Monster]

SPL310 is on the right track and asks lots of the open questions.
Because this engine hasn't been run in 15yrs AND it has a new cam the "std." breakin should be followed.

Run a "break in" wt. type oil (Delo 10/40 is a good choice) If the wrong type of oil is used initially, or the break-in is too easy, rings and cylinders could (most likely will) glaze and never seal properly. A fresh cylinder wall needs some medium to high engine loading to get the piston rings to seat properly for good compression but make sure you don't lug or overheat the engine. Use high quality, low viscosity oil ,no synthetics, too slippery. If synthetics are used during initial break in the rings are sure to glaze over.

set the timing to approx. TDC +10
Prime the oil pump & the engine for a few miutes to make sure everything has been well lubed
start the engine and IMEDIATELY bring it up to above 2000 and continue to vary the RPM's every 5 mins or so between 2000 & 3000 for the next 20-30 mins.

Rings don't "get stuck" they either seat or they don't. "

mike

[undy]

Add some GM EOS to the oil for the break-in. Short of Rotella and a few other oils, there's no zinc additives in today's oils. You can thank the EPA for that... This is a requirement for all hydraulic and solid flat tappit cams. Even the pros wipe cams without it..

On another note.. If the engine's been run for an extended period of time the rings may be gummed solid in their lands. You then you might be headed for a tear down and a re-ring job. If you do that make sure you run a "dingle-ball" hone down the cylinders to get some cross hatch. This will aid in the new rings' break-in and seating.

...hope things go well for ya..

[flwolfman]

I recently purchased a 302 that was supposed to be "rebuilt", but had not been run in a few years. As a precaution, I tore the engine down to see for myself what I had. It had indeed been rebuilt, .030 over and all, but the rings were stuck like you described. I did a light hone to rebreak the glaze, reringed and new bearing, new cam/lifters, new oil pump/ gaskets, now it is ready. The worst thing for an engine is just setting, Moisture will get in there unless extreme precautions have been taken.

If it were mine, I would lightly hone, rering, and go. Good luck, Jim

[Barry_R]

The rings can certainly be stuck after that long. Whatever oil was on them turned to gook. My thoughts are to pull the plugs and liberally spray a ton of WD40 in each hole. Let it sit for a couple hours to work on the gummed up stuff. Crank the motor with the plugs out to smear the WD around & squirt excess liquid out of the cylinders. Reinstall plugs, start it, and drive the thing with some decent load -several 1/2 throttle hits or better.

Sound silly? I did this exact thing to a frozen 260 in a 64.5 Stang & the darn thing broke free & came aroung in an hour - surprised the heck out of me...

[Ron61]

Since you may have to take it apart anyway, I don't see why trying the WD-40would hurt. And if it does work, then you have saved yourself a lot of work.

Ron

[c6ae]

If he engine does have 30K miles on it, there is a bit of taper and out of round in the bore, this is normal. But if the rings are “stuck” with a combination of carbon and old oil (this stuff is like concrete!) they will not adjust to that taper as the pistons travel up and down. The carbon/oil mixture will solidify behind the rings and prevent flexing and sealing. Some will be stuck in the position that is the smaller part of the bore (the bottom) and will not seal at the top causing blow by. And some will be stuck at the larger part of the bore, the top and this will cause rapid wear on the cylinders and can escalate into broken rings/scored cylinders very quickly (in minutes!).
I have seen this and I would tear it down, 428’s only rebore so many times…

[Jon Miller]

Thanks for all of the replies!

I went with Steve Christ's "How to Rebuild Big Block Ford Engines" for the break in, 1200-1500 RPM for 30 minutes. I've got a gallon of WD-40 in the garage, so I think I'll give that a try before I start pulling things apart.

I have been turning the motor over by hand every few months during the build, but it's been sitting at TDC for the majority of the time. If the WD-40 does not work, and I'll know it as soon as I start it up, I'll go with the hone and re-ring.

Hopefully I won't do any (more) damage. My 14 year old really wants me to drive her to school in the Cobra on Monday...She earned it as the first "Snake Bite" victim during break in.......

That must be some kind of record!

Longest Build-10 Years
Quickest Burn-10 Minutes

Thanks,
Jon

[Excaliber]

MARVEL MYSTERY OIL! Perfect for your intended use, BETTER than WD40.

[Burnd]

Jon:

By any chance; are the new lifters Comp Cams??? The reason I ask, is that I had the same problem during the summer. A long with a half dozen other guys I know. It turns out that Comp Cams had an issue with packaging and they shipped (through distributors) a ton of lifters that were labeled wrong. The ones they shipped were for 460's and not FE's. Unfortunately, they fit in the lifter bores but they work (terribly), so users don't recognize the problem immediately. The oil hole on the lifter is in line with the oil pump channel and you get a direct shot of oil pressure from the pump into the lifter (hole needs to be perpendicular). It creates big-time crankcase pressure and will blow smoke and oil out the breathers. It also fills the valve covers with oil before it can drain back into the crank case. I couldn't figure it out and kept changing the restrictors in the galley trying to compensate for it. When I finally figured it out and called Comp Cams; they admitted they knew about the problem and they would send me the right ones next week. I told them to stick it up their bottom and they better have them here, FEDEX next day (which they finally agreed too). What they should have done was sent out a notice or do a "recall", so that guys like us would know to check. Unfortunately, that's admitting a mistake. Another guy here in Jersey spun a bearing and blew a hole in the motor because of it. This would apply to through pushrod oiling. I only mention it because the sympton you mention is analagous to this issue also.

Bernie

[Jon Miller]

I think that I've got Comp Cam lifters, but I bought them about 8 years ago... A quick post WD-40 compression check with my $5 gauge showed a high of 170 PSI on a couple of cylinders, down to a low of 40 and 25 PSI on numbers 7 and 8.

I did try the I-talian tune up just for fun, but I think I'm in for a tear down Monday after work. This thing is still fast even on 6 cylinders, I can hardly wait to see what it's like on all 8! I'll do one more compression test prior to turning bolts to the left, but I'm guessing that there are new rings in my future.....

Thanks,
Jon

[SantaFe66]

I agree with "Slick" on the Marvel Mystery oil. I've used it on numerous motorcycles I've purchased that, for all intents and purposes, were locked up tight from not having been run for years and stored outside, behind the shed.

You squirt it in each cylinder and let it sit for a week. Careful pressure on the crank with a breaker (that's if it is totally frozen) and it will eventually yield. I've recovered full ring seal after running the motorcycle for a couple hours after the MMO treatment.

This was recommended by a professional drag racing motocycle engine builder and it has worked for me on 3 frozen motors. Don't know why it works, but it does. WD40 may indeed work but it's a solvent as well as a lubricant and if it isn't recommended for guns, why would it work on motors? MMO can be used as a top cylinder lubricant through the carb so it's a better choice, in my opinion.

Paul

[Jon Miller]

O.K. you convinced me......I'll give the MMO a shot. I'm not exactly looking forward to pulling the motor after 5 miles of driving. The first freeway run was kind of exciting. I hit first instead of third on the on ramp which lead to a bit of a sideways drift at about 50 MPH. The car recovered nicely, but the 14 year old with the burn may sit out the next test run.

I'll be checking the shift linkage while the MMO does it's thing.

-Jon

[Excaliber]

I used MMO to coat my rings, pistons and cylinder walls when I built the engine, NOT engine oil. Controversial? Well sure, but thats my middle name. Neil, Gessford Machines ace engine builder, swears by it.

Good for all kinds of stuff, perfect for stuck piston rings!

[Monster]

Here's a good explination of what happens during the "ring break-in" process

RING BREAK-IN

This overview may explain why some lubricants (such as MMO) help with break-in. As a number of folks suggested I also used MMO on my latest build and my engine seems to have broken in fine. But I also follow the break-in process of varied RPM's, placing a load on the rings etc from the initial start-up.

good luck,
Mike

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Jon; RE; Compression test;170 psi=good:25/40 psi=bad!!!!!!!!!

how did you do the compression test??????
I normally "run" the compression on all 8 cylinders "dry", then shoot WD-40 or a couple of squirts of engine oil from an oil can one cylinder at a time and re-check the compression on that cylinder.........if the reading goes up from the "dry" to "wet" run, then the problem is in the rings, if the reading stays the same and is still low, then the leakage is in the valves.................

If is was mine and you determined by the compression test that is stuck rings on cylinders 7-8, I would give it a dose of MMO and run it some miles, do this a number (5 to 10) times and re-check compression, you have nothing to lose unless you want to pull the motor and go thru it..........it may work and then again it may not, but it certainly is easier than pulling the motor and doing a rebuild................did I say I HATE pulling motors and going thru them!!!!!!!!! that's why I like to dyno my motors first or at least run them on a run-in stand before installing them, saves a lot of headache and you can find minor oil leaks and fix them before intalling the motor in the car.............

David

[Lowell W]

Mike,

Thanks for the link to some good information. The section on Engine Corrosion is appropriate to this link, also.

Lowell

[Monster]

Lowell,

Thanks I found it informative as well. I missed the Corrosion link and your right it says..... As an engine sits idle, not being used, it is subject to day to day changes in ambient temperature and humidity. it goes on to talk about the affect these changes have on the engine........good stuff.

Engine Corrosion

mike