Roller cam and FE engine

[blykins]

Bar some freak of engine nature, I would say you could install it and forget about it.

5.0L Mustangs have 100000, 125000, 150000 miles on factory roller cams.

If the block is prepared properly and the springs match the cam, I don't see any downsides whatsoever.

IMO, a hydraulic roller is THE best cam choice if your application doesn't require a really high powerband/peak.

[Excaliber]

It's the OLD style solid rollers you might have to change out in 10,000 miles or so (if you get that far ). The hydraulic rollers may well last the life of the engine.

[Keithc8]

There are several ways to go with the style of camshaft you choose for your engine. This has a lot to do with what you want from your engine. What power and longevity do you want and desire? The problem with the flat-tappets has been discussed several times on here and we know that the more agressive they get the more likely they are to go out. I can not take the chance of them going out on the dyno or 3000 miles down the road on the customer. It does not matter if it is a hydraulic or a flat tappet camshaft they both have issues. If you run a small duration and small lift flat tappet camshaft you will have better luck with it living but will not have much power. Most of my customers want the best bang for the buck without any issues and this is why we use the hydraulic rollers in about every street engine we build. In the last three years that has amounted to about 150 FE hydraulic roller camshafts installed or sold to customers with about zero problems compared to the flat tappet camshaft losing a lobe on the dyno or down the road and the whole engine has to come apart again and be cleaned and rebuilt. We also break the camshafts in with low spring pressure and addititve and still have them go flat. If I have a customer that wants to use one I tell them I will not be responsible for it going down on the dyno or in the car after they install it. This will only get worse because of all of the zink being taken out of the oil and they are even taking it out of the Rotella-T now. But what do I know, I find out I know less and less every day. I talk to a lot of people smarter than me every day but the funny thing is they called me, I didn't call them. Good luck, Keith

[427 S/O]

Keith is correct, I use rotella exclusively and read sometime back about the elimination of zinc. Dow makes a lubricant, 'M-Gear oil', which is MoS2, It's not a cure all or HP booster but the lubricating properties are impressive. I've used this product for a number of years without any problems. Short of re-writing all the particulars, I suggest you look it up on the web.

molybdenum disulfide...........

[olddog]

I have seen lower ratio rocker arms for sale, advertised for breaking in a flat tappet cams. Seems like they were 1.3:1 if memory serves me. From my perspective, swapping out the rockers would be a lot easier than swapping the valve spings, however the cost was significant. If you did a lot of engines it would pay to buy them, but not for a single build - my opinion only.

[olddog]

Breaking in a cam, has alway seemed like voo doo to me. I'm hoping someone can really tell me what the heck there is to break in.

My way of thinking:
Since the lifter rotates in the bore, the bottom of the lifter must be flat, or it will quit rotating. Hence the name flat tappet. So there is nothing that needs to wear to a perfect fit here. Likewise the cam lobe should be the shape you want. Now neither the cam lobe nor the lifter bottom are pieces that are hard to machine.

The only thing that could possibly require being worn until properly mated would be if the lifter bores in the block are not perpendicular to the cam bore. And I have heard of the lifter bores being off enough the throw the valve timing off by 3 deg, but that doesn't mean they are not perpendicular. However if this were the case and since the lifter bottom has to remain flat in order to rotate, then the cam lobe must wear to the angle of the lifter bore missalignment. If this was the case then the lifter would need to be harder and have a rough enough surface to wear the cam. Then once the cam is worn to fit the lifter needs to smooth off and quit wearing the cam. This is crazzy. Just machine the block right to start with.

If the lifter bores were not perpendicular to the cam bore wouldn't the roller lifters have the same problems.

I guess I'm back to - I do not buy the claim that failed cams are caused by improper cam break in on start up.

If I'm full of it, please explain it so I can understan it.

[RICK LAKE]

Olddog A couple of thoughts, First a new motor or rebuilt motor is tight. Every motor I have done with hydro or solid lifters was done with single valve springs and 2,000 rpm breakin for 15 minutes. I use 30sae and 2 bottles of EOS oil supplement. I run the motors 1 quart over full. After breakin I go to a 10-40w or 15-50 with 2 bottles of EOS. I DON'T use a windage tray or scraper for the crank on breakin. I want the oil to splash around in the bottom of the motor. I think that some windage trays and scrapers limit the oil from hitting the cam and bottom of the lifters. I would not break a motor in with valve springs with over 150 lb seat pressure. They are not needed on break in. Pre oiling the motor before startup is a MAJOR must. Assembly lube comes off after the first couple of rev's on the cam surfaces. The oil pressure moves it off the surfaces of contact. I have not read what is in the Lucas oil stablizer oil but it has a cligging to the metal parts. I have tested this with my tow truck. After 3 weeks of not running the motor starts without any valve tapping. The oil stay on the metal. Yes it may cause a couple of HP but I am not running nascar motor. Just my 0.2 cents Rick Lake

[scottj]

Originally Posted by olddog

Breaking in a cam, has alway seemed like voo doo to me. I'm hoping someone can really tell me what the heck there is to break in.

My way of thinking:
Since the lifter rotates in the bore, the bottom of the lifter must be flat, or it will quit rotating. Hence the name flat tappet. So there is nothing that needs to wear to a perfect fit here. Likewise the cam lobe should be the shape you want. Now neither the cam lobe nor the lifter bottom are pieces that are hard to machine.

The only thing that could possibly require being worn until properly mated would be if the lifter bores in the block are not perpendicular to the cam bore. And I have heard of the lifter bores being off enough the throw the valve timing off by 3 deg, but that doesn't mean they are not perpendicular. However if this were the case and since the lifter bottom has to remain flat in order to rotate, then the cam lobe must wear to the angle of the lifter bore missalignment. If this was the case then the lifter would need to be harder and have a rough enough surface to wear the cam. Then once the cam is worn to fit the lifter needs to smooth off and quit wearing the cam. This is crazzy. Just machine the block right to start with.

If the lifter bores were not perpendicular to the cam bore wouldn't the roller lifters have the same problems.

I guess I'm back to - I do not buy the claim that failed cams are caused by improper cam break in on start up.

If I'm full of it, please explain it so I can understan it.

uhh... one minor note: Lifters are convex on the face and cam lobes are tapered...that is why they rotate.



.

[Excaliber]

More like IF they rotate, because if they don't your going to loose the cam in a hurry. I suspect thats why the lower valve spring pressures at breakin time come into play, helping the lifter to rotate by less pressure.

I removed the inner spring for my cam breakin and rather than just the basic 20 or 30 minutes, I actually put about a 100 miles on the motor (at reduced rpm) before I put the inner springs back in.

I'm running STP as an additive, it is my understanding it is loaded with the 'good stuff' for cams. I plan to use it for the life of the motor.

[big-boss]

You, guys are way too serious. Break in cam, change valve springs, Al Gore screwing with the oil, damn. At the end of the day it is still a dump truck motor, Right? I have shade tree'd 10 FE's -4 of them side oilers- 0ne HR all in varing stages of tune- never had a problem. You have me scared now.

[Excaliber]

It was never a problem before or 'back in the day', but a couple of things have happened along the way. And flat tappet discussion includes ALL motors, nothing unique about an FE in this regard.

1. EPA mandates for emission controls removed a critical additive to modern engine oils, virtually ALL modern engine oils. I think it was ZDDP, also known by other names. This additive directly relates to cam/flat tappet oil starvation problems, especially during break in.

2. Cam profile/design has become increasingly 'radical' as to lift and duration. What we today might consider a 'mild' grind was a pretty hot setup 'back in the day'. With these new designs valve spring pressure went up, increasing the risk of failure for the cam.

This is an industry wide problem and when it first came to the attention of the major cam grinders most folks blamed it on inferior quality metals. Now we know it's the oil (#1) thats changed, not the cam blanks.

[RICK LAKE]

Excaliber Industry does have a major problem with steel and iron from other countrys. Last 3-5 years, I have had to replace more rotors on cars and truck than to resurface. These are normal driven cars. Rust rings in the rotors,warping,chuncking a pieces coming out of the surfaces. The worst part is this is OEM parts. When people want cheap parts like $25.00 rotors from China in rice boxes, these parts are holding up alot better. I have Chinese rotors on all 3 cars and trucks, no problems. I use the GM pads. Ford has a problem with some cars also. We have lost the Steel industry and manufacturing already. In the next 10 years, The medical industry is going to India. It is cheaper to fly and get operations on than the screw job you get from here. Cost is less than half of having it done here. Hip replacement there $18K with a week recover in hotel with1 member. Here $42K and a 3 day stay. 2 men on my bowling league just had it done. Almost the same operation, new socket and ball on end of hip bone. Rick L.

[Excaliber]

Rick, point well taken, there are in fact many substandard parts that can be traced to substandard steel/iron from a foreign supplier.

However, the basic problem with cam failure, I believe, is as I noted above. While SOME cam failures may indeed be linked to inferior metals over all I don't believe this is the fundamental problem.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by scottj

uhh... one minor note: Lifters are convex on the face and cam lobes are tapered...that is why they rotate.

Goly gee I always assumed they were flat.... least ways they looked flat to me. I guess I never gave much thought to why they rotate. I'm going to have to go over to my sons. He alway has something appart.

However, no one has yet to tell me what needs to wear to a final propper fit, when breaking in a cam.

I understand the ZDDP thing, but the lack of it can cause old engines with 50K, 100K miles, and more wipe a cam. It is not just break in.

My son fired up a rebuilt 350 chevy - all new parts, including high lift high durration cam with heavy spings. He fires it up with load pipes and keeps the rpms up for cam break in. Half way through the cam break in he hears it knocking. He shuts it down and calls me. I listen to it definate knock and the oil pressure has dropped off to about 15 psi, which he didn't notice from under the hood. Checked the oil and it had about a half gallon of gasoline in it. The mechanical fuel pump diaphram was bad (brand new pump). Pulled the engine appart and the rod bearing gaps got worse the farther they were from the oil pump. The front two had a good 0.030 clearance. The point to this whole story is this fact. The cam was not harmed. You couldn't get a worse lubrication problem on cam break in than this and that cam shaft held up.

Now another cam fails on start up, with good oil in the engine. I'm finding it hard to believe it was because the rpms were not in the magical range.

[Excaliber]

An interesting question has been raised here:

Do you STILL need additional ZDDP after the breakin? I never have seen a definitive answer to that. I assume you do and thats why I run a can of STP myself.

RPM in the magical range is nothing more than 'splash' feeding the lifters and cam lobes. As we KNOW a cam can die within minutes of first being 'fired up' it would follow the bulk of the 'breakin' period is also within 'minutes' of the first fire up. Personally I think it has as much to do with lifter rotation as anything else. This might explain the cam survival when the crank bearings failed. Crank bearings don't 'break in' per se, they need lubrication and plenty of it ALL the time. You might get lucky with a cam/lifter setup starving for a short period.

[olddog]

Well I do not know anyone who personally had an older performance engine fail, but I have read of claims that they have on the net. May be true - maybe not.

As for this convex lifter thing, the engine, my son had the intake off of, had the bottoms of the lifters flaired out, and we could not pull them from the top. I guess I'll have to stop at an auto store with a straight edge. Everyone I have talked to tells me that lifters are flat on the bottom. Since the earth was once thought to be flat, I'll keep an open mind until I know the facts.

If all the "cam break in" is about is getting plenty of oil on it ASAP to prevent wearing through the hardened surface on start up, then the first time you let the engine set a couple months, it will fail on the next start up. I'm sure the idea is to keep a film of oil between the lifter and the cam lobe at all times. If this happens then there should not be any wear to speak of. If it doesn't happen, I doubt much of anything can be done to prevent a failure.

[big-boss]

I have hear all about the oil thing and I still do not believe it. We all know that 90 percent of the roller cams are in the American style v-? Basically a factory retrofit. Most of the overhead cam engines have the cam on valve cup like a Lamborghini, Audi, etc. This is essentially the same as a flat tapet, Right? I go back to metals and overworking everything. A few years ago it was acutally the cam blanks fault.

[Excaliber]

The lifter and cam lobe DO 'match profiles' during the breakin, I supect the same could be said for the lifter bore and lifter. Thats why it's always imperative to mark your lifters on a tear down to get them back in their original hole. I've seen all kinds of different wear patterns on lifters.

Make no mistake, there were plenty of cam/tappet failures 'back in the day' for various reasons. It's the fairly RECENT failures from virtually ALL cam manufacturers that raised the issue a few years back. Even with good oil and the right additives (now or back then) if you don't break it in correctly in the beginning it will fail.

Consider this: How common was it to find double springs AND a spring damper (THREE springs if you would) in the 60's? Pretty darn rare! Today? Pretty darn common!

Number one thing to do for a modern flat tappet breakin? REMOVE the inner spring!

[Bunkie314]

I'm running a crane custom grind solid (305 dur, .665" lift) with lunati solid roller lifters, CM push rods, sharp roller rockers, billet shafts, new supports and end supports. Broke the Cam in on Crane's recommended running spring and its going great (850 miles and its just starting to run like a swiss watch.

Some areas need to be looked at when you get into the roller cams. Push rod clearances is likely the most overlooked and if you have any lift over .550" there can be tight spots at the intake, mind you not always. I seen one on here that the upper pushrod pocket broke off due to clearance to the intake. Examine all clearances on every lobe, not just a few.

Another area that gets overlooked is the rockerarm geometery. Binding can happen here as well and requires work to correct.

I have to add this last comment since every body is adjusting their flat tappets and rollers all the time, well there is a problem. Maybe twice a year or if you hear noise. I have yet to readjust since I put mine together, I have checked them once after 500 miles and all I got out of it was a persistant valve cover leak on one side.

If you're adjusting them constantly two things come to mind:
1. THey were never adjust properly to begin with.
2. You have some part that is wearing out or bent and needs to be replaced. Evaluate the entire system for worn parts or buy some good quality equipment and just replace them.

Just my two cents worth.

[CSX 4027]

Schubeck Lifters
Solid, No Break In.
Nuff said.
You can mess with rollers if you like to complicate things.
I like complicated too but had the best results with schubeck.
But, if you engine builder isn't mine, all bets are off.
I am a simple guy and have seen a lot.
I know what I know and never deviate.
I make all ther power with reliability that we stand behind.