Roller cam and FE engine

[mjmacqua]

I would love to show you guys a pic of my failed cam roller, but cant figure out how to embed the pic...

[patrickt]

Speaking of failed cams and FEs, I probably should have posted a link to my Zinc & Phosphorous thread on the Capital Area Cobra Club forum last week. I used "magic goo" and had the ZDDP levels measured at the lab both before and after. Of course we all know that ZDDP is absolutely critical to solid flat tappet cams and that the EPA keeps lowering the permissable levels. That being said, anyone interested in adjusting their ZDDP level should take a look at the thread: http://www.capitalareacobraclub.com/...ic,5499.0.html

[RedCSX1]

Originally Posted by mjmacqua

I would love to show you guys a pic of my failed cam roller, but cant figure out how to embed the pic...

That may say it all Some brand roller lifter are suspect for a reason.

[decooney]

Originally Posted by mjmacqua

I would love to show you guys a pic of my failed cam roller, but cant figure out how to embed the pic...

We'd like to see it. After my buddy Ron's roller lifter failed in his FE for a 2nd time (a few years back) he gave up and went back to old school. However, we all know the cam manufacturers have been working (or fixed) this challenge over the last few years and hopefully it's clear these days which ones fail (and why) and which ones are fixed. What brand of cam and rollers do you have and how long ago did you purchase them?

[fostereast]

Roller cams are very relaible today, most bad feeling about them come from the eighties and nineties when reliability was an issue. With every major auto manufacturer now using them in just about everything, reliably, it makes sense the aftermarket would follow suit

[RodKnock]

I wouldn't hesitate installing a roller cam in an aftermarket block like the Pond, Genesis, Dart or Shelby, but would shy away from retrofitting a roller cam into vintage blocks. My $0.02.

[fostereast]

What is the difference? Except for more physical material in the new blocks, they are pretty much the same.

[Excaliber]

I think were missing data on what TYPES of roller cams are available.
Hydraulic rollers are more reliable than solid roller for the simple fact that the ROLLER BEARINGS get more lubrication than a standard solid roller. It's the ROLLER itself that fails. Today there are special roller solids that DO get enough lubricration to survive on the street, but the 'package' required to get it right is much more expensive than a standard solid roller. Standard solid rollers are NOT recommended for street use, they WILL fail well before a flat tappet or hydraulic flat tappet or hydraulic roller.

Some FE's are NOT set up for hydrualic lifters, period, you cannot run a hydraulic lifter of any type. From about 68 on FE's were drilled for hydraulic lifters and you can run whatever you want.

I would be tempted to go with a hydraulic roller lifter in a later model (68 on) FE block and wouldn't think twice about it, IF thats what I wanted. I think the advantage (more aggressive cam profile compared to flat tappet, generally speaking) may be worth the cost for some. Unless you get a really good hyrdaulic roller setup ($$$) you will be limited on rpm compared to a flat tappet.

Me? It is NOT worth the extra cost, and the cost can be a LOT more than flat tappet! I broke my solid roller cam in about 8,000 miles (roller failure) and went with a solid flat tappet for a couple of reasons.
1. Thats what it was 'back in the day'.
2. Saved a bunch of money (my block WILL accept hydraulic lifters).
The issues with premature flat tappet cam failure are easily addressed and it is NOT an issue if you pay attention to the installation and break in procedures currently recommended.

[fostereast]

What failed in yours? My understanding is that usually a needle in the roller gets punded flat and causes failure.

[Excaliber]

Thats what happened to mine, the needle bearings went flat, the roller stuck and then the roller got 'flat' and broke off the lifter.

Note there is no 'forced lubrication' to the standard roller needles bearings, it is splash only (requires maintaining a reasonable rpm at ALL times). Newer solid rollers CAN be 'force fed' oil pressure, which address' the problem of needle failure, but bring some CUBIC dollars and the right block.

I also had to change push rods because of the difference in hieght from roller to flat tappet.

[blykins]

Ernie, the new pressure fed lifters aren't as much as you think....I paid under $300 for my set from Comp Cams.

[Excaliber]

Isn't that about three times the cost of flat tappets?

Granted, prices are and will be coming down in the near future.

[blykins]

Right, but cheaper than hydraulic rollers....and not as expensive as one would think considering they are pressure fed.

Bottom line is hydraulic rollers are the cat's butt when it comes to streetability and maintenance, plus the added power.

Solid rollers are coming along quite nicely I think. Pairing a nice grind that doesn't require behemoth spring pressures along with pressure fed lifters brings forth a nice cam option.

Beats the crap out of having to run your engine in a garage at 3000 rpm for 30 minutes waiting for the cam to whittle itself down to pieces.....then rebuilding your engine because all of the metal chips got into the oiling system.

I remember Keith Craft posting that he had an engine eat a flat tappet cam on the dyno. If KC can't do it everytime reliably, then I don't wanna chance it.

They say the new solid roller lifters are rated for about 10000 miles. I'll never put that many miles on my car.

[Excaliber]

Another thing I like about solids of any kind is that it keeps you in touch with your motor, and thats not a bad thing! Become one with your engine grass hopper.

Dare I say it? Real men run solid!

[RodKnock]

I thought the machining for the lifters is different on the aftermarket versus vintage blocks and that's why they sell retro-fit roller cam kits for the vintage blocks. Warning: I'm not a mechanic or machinist. Just passing on what I hear from people over the past many years.

[big-boss]

Now that we are all serious again!

I am just an amature but I have had experience-cost me money. The roller lifters are very good today and the cams are even better because of competer modeling. It is lack of experience and available parts in picking the whole package that is 99.9% of the problem. We essentially have 50 year old engines and we stuff a new style (roller) cam throw in some valve springs that Jesus can hardle move with some push rods the size of a pensel because of the intake port size and top it off with heavy valves and huge ineffecient rockers and a marginal oiling system. It is the system that is the issue! Not really the particular parts. To get the work out of the cool cams you need the huge spring pressure- the rest is the real problem and like a chain the weekest link fails. The secret to the really big power as we all now is the valve train- look at any Jab car. No pushrods, springs you can push with your hand. The lighter the valve train the less spring you need- the more power you have with less problems.

[blykins]

Retro fit cam kits are for small blocks.....they require the use of a "spider" to keep the lifters from rotating.

FE's use link bars and thus don't require a "kit".

[Excaliber]

Excellent post big-boss and worth repeating. It is the whole PACKAGE that you need to consider when specing a cam. While the cost of any one component may seem reasonable, the combined costs can quickly escalate depending on options you choose. This is especially true in the 'roller' world no matter which ones you choose.

[RICK LAKE]

Sorry but the biggest problem is not a 40 year old block or putting a roller cam in a motor, It is matching of parts. They now have pressurized roller lifters. I will still add a .010 groove in each bore to add more oil to the mating surfaces. Roller lifters are breaking from the drop of a ..400" lift lobe down to the base circle of the cam."FREE FALL" This is because we want the valves to close as fast as possible. I just got my custom cam from KCR and it is a little smaller than the two he uses the most. There is only a 20 hp different. There is catalog after catalog that tells the matching parts to build a motor from compression, valve size, spring strenght, rpm range, manifold, keepers, pushrods for correct centering of the rocker on the valve tip. We just don't want to follow directions. Rick L. ps I am at fault also.

[82ACAUTOCRAFT]

Can you install a relatively mild hydraulic roller cam and forget about it or you have to replace everything every ten thousand miles or less?