Cast Iron versus Steel Crankshafts

[RodKnock]

While researching crate engines and actually having ordered a Chevy BB in the past, I don't understand why steel cranks can be so common or standard in Chevy engines, but when it comes to Fords, such as the FE's, the crate engines advertised always come with a cast iron crankshaft. Why is this? Even what I would consider an expensive engine, say $15,000-$20,000, the engine builder will supply a cast iron crankshaft. Steel would seem to be very cheap to just add as a standard to these engines. Thank you for your input.

[blykins]

Aftermarket cranks are not cast iron. They're steel....cast, forged, or billet. Take your pick.

The engines that you're looking at for $15-20k are not cast iron cranks. At the very least, they're Scat cranks....cast steel.

There are some manufacturers making forged FE cranks now. Plus Scat will make you a billet one for $2-3k.

[RodKnock]

Sorry, I miscommunicated. I did mean forged versus cast steel. Thank you for the correction. Most crate engines for Chevys, a forged crank is an afterthought, while a forged crank for an FE might/could be $2,000-$3,000 as you mention. I don't understand why.

[RodKnock]

Just to continue, a stroked 427 crate engine with either a Genesis, Pond or Shelby block, Edelbrock heads, Erson or T&D roller shaft system, these are all top shelf items, but it would just seem to me that for a few extra $$, a forged steel crank could be included. Maybe some might find it unnecessary for an engine that won't see 6,500-7,000 RPM's.

[philminotti]

Like Brent said, a forged crank IS now available. Not much long term data on them yet. Survival Motorsports has them. I suggest you do a search on fordfe.com. Barry R. has reviewed them over there.

phil

[blykins]

It probably is necessary....Keith Craft builds some wild FE's (over 700hp & 6500rpm) with Scat cranks. Apparently he's not scared of them.

Forged cranks are now available through a couple of vendors.

[undy]

Actually the Eagle/Scat cranks are not cast steel. It's a marketing ploy.. They're actually a good grade of nodular iron.

The FE cranks are a "beefier" in key areas then the Chebbies, hence the much reduced need for forgings. It's not uncommon to see OEM cast Ford FE cranks seeing 600-700 hp without failures. That's probably why Kieth Craft uses the nodular iron cranks in his 600 hp FE stroker builds.

I'd also heard that these new "Chinese" (off-shore at the very least) forgings have been racked with problems and quality control issues. I would not trust them, IMHO, until time and useage has proven them reliable.

Dave

[WildBill3]

dont put cheap crap in your engine if you want it to live Crower makes exellent cranks and they dont need a bunch of machine work for Heavy metel t go zero ballance you give give them the specs they will make whatever you want

[blykins]

Tell Keith Craft he's putting cheap crap in his engines.

Crower does not make FE cranks.

Sure, give them the specs....let them charge you $2500 for a custom crank. 99% of the people on here don't have motors strong enough to break a new Scat crank.

[FFR428]

Originally Posted by blykins

Tell Keith Craft he's putting cheap crap in his engines.

Crower does not make FE cranks.

Sure, give them the specs....let them charge you $2500 for a custom crank. 99% of the people on here don't have motors strong enough to break a new Scat crank.

I thought Crower would make a custom billet FE crank? I know they make rods but was under the impression cranks could also be had for a tidy sum?

[blykins]

That's what I was saying.....you could give them the specs and let them make a custom one for you.....bet it's big $$$

[RodKnock]

When I purchasing a crate engine for a BBC, I was told by several vendors that all the Eagle, Scat and CAT parts are made offshore. The higher end parts made and sold by Lunati and Crower are made in the USA. I think that there are a lot of offshore parts in a lot of people's engines out there that are doing just fine including me.

Using a Big Block Chevy as an exmaple, the upgrade from a nodular iron crank to a 5140 forged crank is about $700. Add about another $300 for a 4340 forged crank. These seem like reasonable prices to me and I was only curious why this can not apply to FE Fords.

[Barry_R]

It does apply to the FE - now. I'll try to keep this from sounding like an ad - so prices are generalizations, and simliar parts are certainly available from multiple vendors including Keith, who sponsors this forum.

The Scat cast stroker cranks run just under $800 on average. They take a couple pieces of mallory to internally balance.

We can all get import steel forged 4.25 strokers that sell for only a few dollars more. These are non-branded parts, and I do not feel that the machining quality is at the same level as the Scat product. My personal preference is to invest a couple hundred bucks into these and have them locally prepped. The total cost ends up just past a grand - - a pretty reasonable upgrade per dollar. The couple I've balanced here have taken three pieces of mallory...so you're looking at a +/-$350 cost bump.

[WildBill3]

Tell him your self they are cheap forien sh#*t if thats what u want in your car go for it!!!!!!!

[wrench87]

so barry what is the benefit of running the non branded steel crank over the scat crank?, is the extra money worth spending on a engine built for the street? i thought scat and eagle stuff were made off shor also?.

[RodKnock]

Barry,

Thank you for your input. Just for clarification, your website lists an FE 4.25 stroker kit/rotating assembly for $2,200. This price would include the mallory metal/balancing.

[blykins]

What do you expect us to do WildBill? The FE market isn't exactly swamped with aftermarket crankshafts?

In all your wisdom, do you think it's better to buy a $600 crankshaft that will handle 800hp.....or should we step up to the billet crank for $2500?

The steel and cores are offshore....machining is done in the US. Overseas steel is cheaper....don't be too sure that Crower isn't getting their steel from there as well.

So since you have the line on everything, what would you suggest we use? 40 year old cast iron pieces?

I guarantee my offshore Scat crank is machined to just as tight of a tolerance as your blessed Crower piece.

[WildBill3]

shove your chineese steel up you tailpipe jack

[blykins]

Great comeback. :-) You just confirmed all the first impression opinions I had about you.

BTW....don't be surprised if your steel is Chinese too.

If you were even close to mature, you'd realize that you don't call other people's stuff crap. I'd say a very great deal of the new FE's on this forum have Scat cranks. So you just insulted the owners and the engine builders.

Like I said before, if you're so sharp, tell us what cranks you'd like us to use....

Otherwise, keep your peanut gallery comments to yourself.

[cobrajam]

I have been following this thread w/ interest since this is where I am in my build, and thought maybe I would gain some insight as to what crank to use...that is before the cat fight started.
From what I have read, Ford cast cranks and Scat cast steel cranks are both made from crankshaft grade nodular iron using a similar process. The Scat being steel in name only, and in fact cast steel is an inferior product vs cast iron for crankshaft use. The steel only likes being forged. Ford had the patent, formula or whatever on using nodular iron. The bow tie folks did not want to pay Ford for using this technology, so they used a malleable iron that had to be heat treated, was still inferior to the nodular, and probably a big reason why forged cranks are more mass produced by chebby, perhaps answering your question as to why forged cranks are more common in chebbies. Chebbys answer to providing a stronger crank was to go forged...when they wanted a stronger rear, they use a Ford 9", and when they want a stronger transmission, they use an adapter to mate a Ford Toploader . Guess they could not figure out how to use a Ford crank.
From what I have been told by several old time FE racers was that even a FE cast crank is darn near indestructable, as long as they are properly balanced, get plenty of oil, and the rods/rod bolts do not break. Most documentation lists 500-600hp as the max for a typical cast crank, but there are quite a few running FE cast cranks, 428s included, that are running in the 700-800hp range, and are spun to 8500rpm w/o failure.
From what I have experienced on my first Cobra build, it started as an iron block 427 w/ forged steel modified 391 crank. On one of my rebuilds (4 in about 3500 miles of use), I swapped out the steel crank for a cast crank (at least 10lbs lighter) and the steel flywheel for an aluminum one. The improvement was unbelievable with just the lightening of the rotating mass. As a matter of fact, I have a cross drilled steel crank (74lbs), a smoothed cast crank (64lbs), a modified 391 steel crank (having it knife edged/lightened, unsure of final weight), and a 427 cast crank with the grooved mains (66lbs). All .010/.010, all 3.78 stroke. I am still trying to gather useful info so as which one to chose.
So to answer your question, as long as you stay with a naturally aspirated engine, and the fact that its tough to get a Cobra to really hook up, a properly set up cast crank should do just fine.
And as far as your question about the expense, especially if you are new to FEs, do not let the Ford guys fool you into thinking that FE stands for Ford/Edsel...it stands for F*(#!@& Enormous and/or F*(#!@& Expensive .