I think I'm going to build my first FE

[philminotti]

Jockey-

Although I really respect Rick and his expansive knowledge of the FE, I have to disagree with his and others assertion that a "pro" needs to build the bottom end. Not true. If you do your homework, have the tools, and I mean ALL the tools, go for it. My block was machined by KCR, and it's perfect. How do I know? I checked every frickin' clearance and dimension. I got my rotating assembly from Barry at Survival. There's a guy who stands behind his products. I identified a rod bearing clearance problem...because I checked, and he's sending me out new bearings.

The point is, this isn't rocket science.

By the way, having a dial bore gauge is essential, IMHO. Ebay.

phil

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

This was a 428 pass car block, with the 4.25 stroke kit for 465 cubes. It had dish pistons and a lightly dolled up set of Edelbrock heads for 9.8:1 compression. It had a 238@.050 Crane hydraulic roller cam, Erson rockers, and a BT intake (sorry 'bout the guy who don't like them ) - the intake fit perfectly, looked good and ran darn well. The motor idled decently at 750RPM, and made over 500lbs TQ from 3200 all the way to 5200 with a peak of 518. For horsepower we hit 497 at 5250.

That would make a lovely street Cobra engine. Jockey, when putting together your parts list, seek out a tried-and-true combination that gives you DCR numbers that will run on your available pump gas and that gives you a power range that you can actually use. Don't get inventive on your first build -- instead, find somebody's build that you like and copy it exactly. Smart FE builders, like Barry, make their living not just by knowing how to put them together properly, but by knowing what parts work together well. That comes from experience; you won't find it in any of the manuals.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I'll avoid getting "commercial" here - but I will give you some data on what you can expect from a mild street build. We just finished up a 428 stroker that was destined for a big car (mid-60s T-bird) - and it was a really nice piece for the purpose.

This was a 428 pass car block, with the 4.25 stroke kit for 465 cubes. It had dish pistons and a lightly dolled up set of Edelbrock heads for 9.8:1 compression. It had a 238@.050 Crane hydraulic roller cam, Erson rockers, and a BT intake (sorry 'bout the guy who don't like them ) - the intake fit perfectly, looked good and ran darn well. The motor idled decently at 750RPM, and made over 500lbs TQ from 3200 all the way to 5200 with a peak of 518. For horsepower we hit 497 at 5250. Nothing incredible - but a really nice street engine that should get the job done on a reasonable budget for a long time.

Darn, Barry - that's EXACTLY what I want, almost to the digit. A well behaved, well built reliable torque monster with a pool table flat torque curve, and big HP up near a reasonable top rev limit that will purr like a *****cat down Main Street, but can also rip Main Street up and spit it out when I want it to. There's nothing outrageous about this engine or near the limit so to speak, so it should run well, and run well for a long time.

I've tried to call you a few times and can't get through - what's the best time to call? I look forward to speaking to you. Thanks for all the great info, and thanks to ALL of you for so much valuable information. This forum continues to be an invaluable asset.
Doug

[767Jockey]

Thats so funny - I just noticed that the forum software automatically censored my use of the word pu$$ycat in my post above. That's all I wrote - didn't want anyone to think I was being vulgar. (I usually am, but not here.)

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Darn, Barry - that's EXACTLY what I want...

If you have Barry building/breaking-it-in it for you, ask him about "trading up" to a solid, flat tappet cam. With the Ersons you'll only be adjusting them once a year or so and, IMHO, a big FE in a Cobra just cries out for a solid, flat tappet cam. I'm sure everyone on this board agrees with me.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by patrickt

If you have Barry building/breaking-it-in it for you, ask him about "trading up" to a solid, flat tappet cam. With the Ersons you'll only be adjusting them once a year or so and, IMHO, a big FE in a Cobra just cries out for a solid, flat tappet cam. I'm sure everyone on this board agrees with me.

I couldn't agree more. I'm an old geezer now (49) and very much old school. The sound of a snotty idle rumbling through deep toned pipes with the sweet chorus of solid lifters singing through the background makes the hair on my arms stand up just thinking about it. However.....

There's only two ways this engine can be built due to financial constraints. One of for me to gather the parts as recommended, find a competent local machinist (I already found him) and assemble it myself. The other is for me to scrape together a few extra bucks, which all things being equal I would prefer to do, and have someone like Barry, Keith Craft or the local guy assemble the shortblock. There's no possible way I can afford to have someone assemble and break in the engine. As much as I'd like to there's just no way I can afford that.

This means that I'll be the one to start and break the engine in. I just don't want to take any chances with doing that myself with a flat tappet cam. I've heard so many horror stories on here about how hard they are to break in now with the new oil and God knows why else that the hydro roller will be one other problem off my mind. If I was able to have it built and run in by a pro, I'd love to have a solid cam, no doubt about it. I agree with you 100%. There's just no way I'll do it on my own. I realize that there's just a small chance that it'll get wiped out on startup. There's not enough space to type here to tell you about the horrible luck I've had in the last 6 years. Trust me, as soon as I start it it'll wipe out, and likely take everything else with it. I'd love solids, but I'm staying hydro roller.

Damn, I do so agree with you on the sound though. Such sweet music solids do make.

[Clois Harlan]

Barry,

No offense taken...I have just had a little better mid and top end with another intake. You are correct the BT fits great and looks good too but for what I am doing these days I will probably go back to my other intake.

I am making about 635 hp and 580 torque but my engine does not like anything below 93 or 95 octane. The 428 is a very under rated engine IMO.

Clois

[Clois Harlan]

Also, solids are a no brainer. Fire the engine and keep your RPM at 2000 for about 15-20 mins using Rotella or Valveoline Race Oil. I have been running them for almost 8 years and no problem...by the way 49 is not old!

Let us know how you progress and if you run into troubles we can help.


Clois

[Excaliber]

I just got a phone call, things are possibly shaping up for me to rebuild a date coded 1965 side oiler for a friend. The current engine is totally stock, as it would have come in 1965, including low riser iron heads. Sounds like he lost a rod bearing...

Now the fun begins, what specs to incorporate to get good performance and decent reliability! I'm thinking, Ebrock heads Stage 2, Comp Cam solid lifter and valve spring set, (block cannot use hydraulics), Dove rocker assembly. Tough part: Stay with the original forged crank or go with a stroker setup? Custom pistons to get better quench or standard issue (much cheaper) and adjust C.R. by carefully watching the CC of the heads?

...I better give George at Gessford a call, looks like I'm going in, stay tuned for yet another engine blog...

[FFR428]

I think if it were totally stock 65 it would have the C5AE-F MR heads no?

[Excaliber]

I suppose thats so, but in this case it does have the low riser heads, possibly replaced at some point in the engines life time? That brings up another point as I consider the 'period correct' equation. Get some decent (MR or HR) correct iron date coded heads or go Ebrock? VERY special block/original '65 side oiler. Tempted to 'keep it real'.

[RICK LAKE]

philminotti Phil I don't know how many years 767 jockey has been a mechanic.This is why I would tell him to go to a GOOD knowed FE machinist. If this was a chevy SB motor, I would say you can do it. The worst thing that would happen is blowing up the motor and going to the junk yard and getting another motor or block. There is not alot of FE motors in the yards any more. Look at how many threads you read on blowup motors,spun bearings bent valves twisted rods,etc. I do the same thing you do with assembling a motor and recheck all the spec's. I learned old school, but stay up to date with new school and ideas. Rod bolt stretch method is only what, 5 years old. We are finding out this is a better method than the old tork to 52-55 ft lbs. If you go with the stretch method the tork on the bolts is in the 63-67ft of tork. This is a big different. I checked my short block and let my machinist put it together. He has an iron block, I have a Shelby block and my clearances are tighter than the iron by alot. It is less than the blue print or .0025-28 for rods and .0027-30 for mains. I also run a 100 psi spring in the oil pump, HVHP melling pump. I peroil the motor before startup. I have read on a number of buildups about wiping out cams and other problems with motors just rebuilt. If it was easy to do everybody would assembly there own. I also only run 1 valvespring on breakin, and they have 100 k miles on them. They are soft but breakin just fine. In the old days you could just pour the oil in and fire it up. NOT today. This is what the experence people have learned. First time builder, go and let the machinist built it. MY 2 cents Rick L. Ps find out what it would cost for the crank,rods, and pistons to get done for the block, machine work and then get a stroker kit price. I think you will be within 3-400 dollars, and have all new parts. It worth the different.

[Excaliber]

Work with your machinist! You have to know what specs YOU want, DON'T count on the machine shop to know. They work within 'acceptable' ranges for grinding the crank or boring the block. If you want .0025 rod clearance you need to talk to your machinist about it before he grinds the crank. It's common for a machine shop to bore 'standard' sizes as well, .010, .020 etc. But what if it's a side oiler, you may want a .017 overbore and a final hone might get you .018 or .019. These 'odd ball' sizes require a little more than just another 'grind and bore' coming through the shop. THATS another reason to go with an experienced FE builder.

[olddog]

767Jockey - you have gotten a lot of good advise. The books that were listed to read, by someone. is a must. I would recomend you studdy them over and over before and durring your build.

All engines have marginal designed things about them (some more than others and FEs have a lot). To have a sucessful build you need to understand the good, the bad, and the ugly about the engine you are building. When you read a book you can learn what many others found out the hard and expensive way.

I have never built a FE, but I wouldn't hesitate to, and I may someday. I assume you are an aircraft mechanic, so you are familiar with tools and how things work. All you have left to do is learn the particulars of the FE.

[olddog]

Oh buy the way, do read Excaliber's engine build thread, link above.

As much as I hate to pump up an already enflated ego, he did do a darn good job on it.

[fostereast]

Barry R can help you a lot; also check out the FE forum, the guys are great there.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/

Many of the guys on the FE forum seem to build low dollar high quality FEs and some of the guys build high dollar high quality FEs, and I don't think anyone that is a regular is building grenades.

I think a low dollar good quality 390 build has some merit, but I have not started mine yet so ...