I think I'm going to build my first FE

[767Jockey]

...and I don't know nearly enough about them. Here's the deal. I'm not one of the big bucks guys. I'd love to call Keith Craft or George Gessford and just tell them to build it. I can't do that financially. I'm going to ask you guys for advice here, and I know the first thing you're all going to want to tell me is "let (fill in the blank) do it - you can't do an FE inexpensively." That's just not an option for me.

I think there's a difference between skimping, doing things on the cheap, and doing things the way I'd like to which is to choose intelligently and try to save where I can.

I want to build an engine here, not a hand grenade with 650 HP. Ideally I'd like to do a 428 based stroker, with somewhere between 450 and 500 HP. I don't imagine with the cubic inches involved (I believe 460 or there about) it has to be a really radical engine to accomplish this goal.

The 428 block I will likely use is a normal everyday passenger block. It's not a CJ, SCJ or anything like that with the heavy webbing. I'm told that If I keep the power below 500 HP this won't be a huge issue. Is this correct?

I also have a set of heads I can use. I'd like to put the Edelbrocks on the engine, but for finances they may have to wait. In the meantime I have a set of C6AE-U heads I can put in just to get the car usable for the season. What can you tell me about these heads? I guess they're what are called low risers? Any info or insight into these is appreciated. Keep in mind I don't expect to reach my power goals as stated above with these heads. They'll just get me on the road until I get the money for the ported E'brocks, which hopefully will get me there to 450 - 500 HP.

I'll probably invest the extra money for the hydraulic roller cam as it makes break in so much easier. I look at the FE failures written about here, and most seem to be valvetrain related. I'll go with the rollers, quality pushrods, and I guess the Erson rocker setup. I assume the Ersons will fit both the temporary heads and the E'brocks? I'm told that I may have to swap out just the stands. Is this correct?

Is anyone using these C6AE-U heads? Can anyone tell me anything about them? What power can I expect with the temporary and the E'brock setups? What can I do to promote the longevity of this engine? I don't want to be a FE statistic. I'm hoping that keeping the power level and the RPM's at a realistic level and that choosing a quality stroker kit (Scat with H beam rods with forged pistons) and valvetrain components will make this engine reliable. Any and all input is appreciated, especially forn l FE owners. Thanks.

[1985 CCX]

FE Gods,

Doug and I have been chatting about the FE options. Knowing that early CSX3XXX "428" cars were generating ~365 ish hp, can these beasts be reliable with 450+hp? Most all the guys I know have had more than one FE in their car. Is there a hp point where the FE becomes a liability versus an asset?

Questions:
1) What type of reliable power can be generated for street use?
2) How many miles can be expected on an FE? I drive my car so if one can expect 5000 miles until failure it is not an option.
3) How many FE's have been in your car?
4) How many miles on your FE in your Cobra?
5) Secrets to a reliable FE for many years of pleasure?

Thanks to all,

[lineslinger]

767 Jockey,
I understand your need to finesse the budget. I spent over 18 months prudently ( I hope ) collecting components for my big block build.
You sound like you are developing a proven philosophy.
Build a rock solid bottom end.
One that will handle whatever changes you employ to the top end down the road.
Reliability and strength on the bottom end allows much more flexibility later on.
A block that has been tested and proven. Do your best to install the highest quality crankshaft, pushrods and pistons you can afford. This and proper oiling is the key to long life, no skimpy OP.
Spend your bucks on a solid base and use the KISS method up top until your budget allows for the improvements you desire.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by lineslinger

767 Jockey,
I understand your need to finesse the budget. I spent over 18 months prudently ( I hope ) collecting components for my big block build.
You sound like you are developing a proven philosophy.
Build a rock solid bottom end.
One that will handle whatever changes you employ to the top end down the road.
Reliability and strength on the bottom end allows much more flexibility later on.
A block that has been tested and proven. Do your best to install the highest quality crankshaft, pushrods and pistons you can afford.
Spend your bucks on a solid base and use the KISS method up top until your budget allows for the improvements you desire.

Lineslinger,
That's exactly my plan. I can upgrade the top later as funds allow without yanking the whole assembly from the car. I want reliability above and beyond all else. I don't want to squeeze every last drop of horsepower from the old girl only to watch it hand grenade a short time later. Once the reliability factor is met, THEN I'll look for as much power as I can possibly squeeze out of it within that parameter.

I'm looking at the Scat stroker kit with H beam rods and ARP bolts, Clevite bearings, top quality forged pistons pistons. Block will be fresh bored, decked, align hones, oil passages in the back drilled and tapped so they don't leak (see, I DO read the threads!). I'll spend the extra $300 or so to have the rotating assembly professionally assembled, then do the rest myself. Hydraulic rollers should ease the break in worries, and the money spent on the Ersons should ease my valvetrain worries as well.

Now, reading this post and the first one I wrote, as well as what Jeff added above, what do you guys think? I'm open to all suggestions, comments, concerns, etc. I'm new at the whole FE thing and no doubt have lots to learn. I'd be interested in power estimations for the stock heads and the ported Edelbrock heads, as well as any and all info someone may have on just what these stock heads are and the limitations they present.

[Excaliber]

I re-built mine on a budget, just wasn't an option to go with the 'Big Dog' engine builders. I was shocked at what the final cost for PARTS was, around $4,000. BUT, what started as a simple 're-fresh' did turn into a full blown down to the bare block 're-build', including new custom pistons which were a real 'budget buster'.

A friend of mine runs original iron low riser heads on his older Hi Tech with a 427 side oiler. He's also running a STOCK valve train on that motor! Very reliable but a bit low on horse power, enough to keep him smiling.

You CAN over do the horse power thing! When I rebuilt mine I specifically wanted to 'de-tune' it for better STREET performance. Out with the 12.5 to 1 pop up pistons, gone was the solid roller cam in favor of a flat tappet, dump those 660 center squirter race only carbs and on with some vacuum secondaries. The new pistons provide about 9.8 to 1 compression and the cam has a nice 'lumpy' idle but very streetable. The new smaller carbs have much better throttle response. I calculate I gave up about 150 horse power from what I had. How did that affect performance? Used to run 11.90 at 121 at the 1/4. New motor: 11.99 at 118 with WAY BETTER around town response and DOUBLE the gas mileage!

One thing WAS quite noticable though, the 'explosive power' from the old engine when it hit about 3000 rpm was quite a shock, man that thing was a rocket! Now it's a steady pull up to red line and is quite predictable. That works for me. It's clear I couldn't put all that former horse power to the pavement anyway without running slicks.

I bought ALL MY PARTS through George at Gessford Machine. Now I could have 'shopped around' and saved some money by using different sources for different things, so why didn't I? Along with those Gessford parts came Gessford tips and tricks concerning the FE! I can't say it would work that way for YOU, but the advice I got during my build was indeed 'priceless'. No doubt it saved me far more in trouble than I could have possibly saved 'shopping around' for a better deal.

Marvel Mystery Oil for the piston/ring/bore installation! Thing of beauty, best darn 'tip' EVER!

[FFR428]

The C6AE-U heads are not the lowriser port heads. Those were the C6AE-R. your heads are the smaller velocity ports like the C6AE-J, L,Y and later C7AE-A,C8AE-H.

[767Jockey]

What does all this mean? I honestly know nothing at all about stock FE heads. Could you please take a moment and explain to me what they are, and what the differences are between all the Ford original FE heads and where these sit in the range? I know I want to end up eventually with some ported Edelbrocks, but I don't know exactly what I have here with these. I really appreciate it.

[Dwight]

I'm not a Big Block guy per say but I may be one day, so I've bought 9 390's, one 428, and a 460 just in case I change my mind.
The books that I bought to help me understand the FE motors are;

High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange ISBN 1-884089-33-X by George Reid $20 to $30

Ford Perfomance by Pat Ganahl ISBN 1-884089-27-5 $20- $30

How To Rebuild Big-Block ord Enginds by Steve Christ ISBN 0-89586-070-8 $18.95

Building the motor is part of the fun.

Dwight

[xlr8or]

Why not just get the Edelbrock heads now? By the time you rebuild a set of iron heads your half there or more. Summit has them for $1350 or so per pair.
Then later on just have them ported if you want.

[Excaliber]

Depending on the condition of the heads he has now, you may be onto something there Xlr8or! It can cost a bunch just to find out your old heads are cracked in the first place.

[sideoiler10]

A lot of guys want the Edlebrock heads, but you should bear in mind that the stock Edlebrock heads have fairly small valves. To make them produce equal to a set of built Cobra Jet (Ford iron) heads you will need to increase the valve sizes. If I'm not mistaken the Edlebrocks come with 2.09 intakes/1.60 exhaust. I am currently running a set of old '68 Cobra Jet heads that have been ported/polished and fitted with 2.19 intake/1.75 exhaust valves.

Not sure what the cost to convert the valves would run but even the Edlebrock heads need the larger valves.

I agree with Excalibur on purchasing parts from one of the most reputible builders/suppliers in the field. Personally, I have not purchased anything from George at Gessford, but he has taken lots of time to answer questions I have asked and has provided several tips and tricks. The same for Bill Parnum, Southern Automotive, although I have purchased some parts from him.

Because you indicate engine reliability and longevity is your primary goal, why not have someone like George, Keith Craft, or Bill Parnum, do all of the design and assembly? From what I understand, the FEs are quite different than other engines when it comes to assembly. For that reason, I would defer to the experts. I know it is quite satisfying to build an engine yourself, but the parts for an FE are pretty expensive so I don't think I would gamble that amount of money knowing my own lack of experience in FE engines. Of course, maybe I am just a coward!

Sounds like you would have a heck of a short block assembly. Should provide a really strong base for some pretty good power down the road. I am glad to see you are going with an FE engine. Afterall, the most copied vintage sports car in history should have a correct engine, either a 427 or 428.

Good luck, Bob

[RICK LAKE]

767 Jockey Alot of us work the cobra on a shoestring budget. TOO bad goverment can't do the same. There is NO CHEAP motor build. Bottom line is you get what you pay for. If you have NOT built a couple of motors, ( mikeing rod and mains, checking all the clearances, checking end play on cam and crank, spending 2 hours washing and using all the brushes to clean out the galleys in the block DON'T do it yourself the first time. Get a good block first. Have it checked for straightness, thickness of the cylinder walls, how much machine work may be needed. Have it boiled and cleaned to start. If the block is stock bore, it just might need a lite honeing. You may have to go to special pistons of .010 over. Crank may need to be cut 10-10 under to clean up. Rods need new rod bolts resized and checked for cracks. The whole rotating mass should get balanced. New dampener for the motor. With all this work for the crank rods and pistons, it may be cheaper to get a stroker crank kit with bearings ready to drop in the block. There are special tools you will need, a GOOD torque wrench, a rod bolt stretch checker, dial indicator for checking end play on crank and cam, cam bearing installer kit. Alot has changed in specs for FE's in the last 20 years. .003" for rods and crank bearing clearance is too LOOSE in MY OPINION. Race motor YES not a street motor. The oil in the motors has changed alot. It cost about 2,400.00 for a crank kit with everything to assembly in a machined block. Let someone with GOOD FE knowledge assembly and machine your short block. You do the heads,oil pan,intake manifold, and other misc parts on the motor. if you want to talk about this you can call me.732-254-3536 Rick L . Also go with a nice hydro cam, small something in the .550" lift. The car will sound good and still be very drivable. Build a strong TORQUE motor and not worry about how much HP there is. I have 370hp and 460 ft of tork, car runs 12.5 in the 1/4 mile and smooth idles at 700 rpm. my crane cam is a 501-533. Bigger is not better in cam shafts, also have you driven a Viper,vette, or superbike. Even with my 33 years of bikes and race cars the cobra is still a handful.

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by sideoiler10

I am currently running a set of old '68 Cobra Jet heads that have been ported/polished and fitted with 2.19 intake/1.75 exhaust valves.

Not sure what the cost to convert the valves would run but even the Edlebrock heads need the larger valves.

Good luck, Bob

Just one comment- If you have even a modestly sized cam (550/560 lift range), you cannot run the big 1.75 exhaust valves in a 428- the valves will hit the cylinder walls. The 1.75 valves were designed for the large bore 427 and will not work with the 428 unless it is bored within in inches of its life.

Jockey-
I understand your desire to build your own (I wanted to also, but realized that if I actually wanted to drive my car this decade, I better have someone put it together for me), but Sideolier is right. Parts are expensive and good original blocks are getting harder to find- you would be sick if, after going through the time and expese of putting it together and installing it in the car, something went wrong because of a "rookie mistake." As a compromise, you might look into the cost of having someone assembling a short block for you and you doing the rest.

Also, I agree with XLROR regarding the Edelbrock head- they offer a lot of advantages of factory heads, i.e., weight savings and ability to run slightly higher compression ratio. Plus, by the time you get done reconditioning your factory heads you will probably have spent at least half as much as the E-brocks would cost you. In addition, since you want to run a Hyd Roller, you will need to get new valve springs, retainers, etc. any way, so you might be better off buying the E-brocks unassembled and put them together yourself with the hardware necessary for the roller cam.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

767 Jockey ... A lot has changed in specs for FE's in the last 20 years. . . The oil in the motors has changed alot. . . Let someone with GOOD FE knowledge assembly and machine your short block.

767 Jockey, I'm with Rick on this on. I had my 428 built for longevity and reliability by a FE guru in Danbury, CT. It puts out an honest 450HP and just under 500 ft/lbs of torque. It drives on the street as pleasantly as my full size GM car. None of the blueprinting specs look much like the numbers that you find in the classic FE manuals. My solid lifter cam is very close to the original AA cam, with a 114 LSA, but advanced with six degrees. The most you ever see in any of the old books was four. It's stroked and bored to 447 cubes and revs like silk past six grand. In my opinion, you have to let an experienced pro put together your first FE, or at a minimum your short block. Don't try and tell them how to build it even if you think you can, just tell them what you really want and then let them have at it.

[CJ428CJ]

Just one comment- If you have even a modestly sized cam (550/560 lift range), you cannot run the big 1.75 exhaust valves in a 428- the valves will hit the cylinder walls. The 1.75 valves were designed for the large bore 427 and will not work with the 428 unless it is bored within in inches of its life.

I don't now about cast iron heads but this is not true for Edelbrock heads. I have a 428 bored .030 and I'm running Edelbrock heads with 2.19 intake and 1.75 exhaust valves. The cam lift is .609 on the intake and .622 on the exhaust.

Chris

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by CJ428CJ

I don't now about cast iron heads but this is not true for Edelbrock heads. I have a 428 bored .030 and I'm running Edelbrock heads with 2.19 intake and 1.75 exhaust valves. The cam lift is .609 on the intake and .622 on the exhaust.

Chris

30 over may be enough clearance for the big valves. For a std 428 bore it is in fact true, trust me.

[Clois Harlan]

Hey Jockey,

I ran a 428 that had been bored .030 over and I put well over 4000 race miles on the engine. My cam at that time was a 572 lift and I think 540 dur w/ a 110 degree lobe center. My heads were stock Edelbrock (2.19 x 1.75), I also used the springs and retainers that Crane had recommended (double springs). Lower end was stock 428 CJ crank, rods and .030 TRW pistons (10.2 : 1 compression). My point is that you can build an good FE engine by doing some key things right. Good Machine shop, good parts, and careful attention to detail.

It won't be cheap but when it is all over you will be glad you did. I have several brand new parts for an FE (oil pump, mech fuel pump, starter, a pulley or two etc. Go with the Edelbrock heads because if you plan on running pump gas you will have to put in hardened valve seats and that requires that you remove quite a bit of material and you don't have a lot of material to remove on the iron heads. Order your heads bare and use the recommended springs to go with your cam (it does make a difference). DO NOT USE A BLUE THUNDER INTAKE, I think they are over priced and under performing, go with another aftermarket alum intake. Use good gaskets and bearings and you should be fine.

Clois

[Excaliber]

Hey that was a good point about buying bare Ebrock heads. You WILL want to get the springs recomended for the cam, it's likely whatever springs come with the Ebrock heads won't be fully compatible.

[Suomien]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

30 over may be enough clearance for the big valves. For a std 428 bore it is in fact true, trust me.

I believe Edelbrock heads have had the valves moved within the chamber as compared to factory heads. The relocated valves allow for the larger valve sizes within the smaller bore FE's.

Here's an article about getting 450HP from a 390. I would think that with 460 cubic inches you could break the 500HP barrier easily.

HOTROD Magazine FE buildup

[Barry_R]

I'll avoid getting "commercial" here - but I will give you some data on what you can expect from a mild street build. We just finished up a 428 stroker that was destined for a big car (mid-60s T-bird) - and it was a really nice piece for the purpose.

This was a 428 pass car block, with the 4.25 stroke kit for 465 cubes. It had dish pistons and a lightly dolled up set of Edelbrock heads for 9.8:1 compression. It had a 238@.050 Crane hydraulic roller cam, Erson rockers, and a BT intake (sorry 'bout the guy who don't like them ) - the intake fit perfectly, looked good and ran darn well. The motor idled decently at 750RPM, and made over 500lbs TQ from 3200 all the way to 5200 with a peak of 518. For horsepower we hit 497 at 5250. Nothing incredible - but a really nice street engine that should get the job done on a reasonable budget for a long time.