Fe Cam Recommendation?

[Keithc8]

This is a no brainer with the rpm range that you want to operate the engine in. With the hydraulic roller you can run the same duration as the flat tappet and fill the cylinder more because you can have a more aggressive lobe because of the roller. If you wanted to turn the engine 7000 rpms then I would do the flat tappet camshaft because it will rpm better than an hydaulic and last longer than a solid roller camshaft. If you are racing only or have no problem checking the lifter after about 5000 miles and checking the lasg for lifter wear ever now and then the solid roller is the best.
If the flat tappet was the best way to go on an engine that was going to turn no more than 6000 rpms then the current cars would have them and they don't. Ther hydraulic roller makes more power with less friction which is what you are looking for. You can run a smaller camshaft with the hydraulic roler than the solid flat tappet and make the same power but have more drivability and vacuum plus you do not have to worry about a lobe going flat or have to break the damn thing in. Seem pretty simple to me. Good luck, Keith

[Excaliber]

Keith, what about cost factors involved? I would have to assume the flat tappet is less expensive, but by how much?

You know, the classic 'cost/benefit' analysis thing.

[convincor]

Flat tappet cam $100, Lifters $100.
Hydrauilic Roller cam $400, Lifters $500..
Not worth it in my opinion... But If your building a all aluminum 427 what's another $700??

[Jerry Clayton]

And the block isn't drilled for oil to the lifters---a contributing thing to the number of cam failures in these engines

This guy said " 1965 Comet AF/X " why are you trying to convince him to do the Hydralic roller thing? He wants the tappet noise, and idle/rev of the classic f/x cam back in 1965


Jerry

[eschaider]

Jerry's +1

Make it sound like they did back then. The cams were nasty and loud. Up next to a running engine it sounded like there was a guy on the inside of the motor trying to get out using a sledgehammer to break through. Remember this is, after all, an AFX clone!


Ed

[Jerry Clayton]

Darn Ed, you must be getting old--to remember the sounds from back then

See that your from Gilroy---did you ever see our cars run??

Jerry

[RICK LAKE]

Jerry C I raced and turned wrenches on a hemi road runner and if you wanted to win and run the number week inand out, there was alot of valve adjustment and other minor adjustments depending on the track. If they had hydro roller lifters back then, I would have not burnt my hand so many times, or had the burning oil spitting up in my face working on a hot motor. Doing carb adjustment, you had no choice. We had a couple of engine fires for hot motor, no damage done but what a pain. Checking lifters after every 50 runs and replacing the lifters and camshaft after every 200 runs, at this time 2 times a season. With todays greater custom cams with hydro lifters and not trying to turn 9,000 rpm motors are maken more power at a lower range and don't need triple valve springs and 400 lbs seat pressure. If I had the money and time, I think and believe that you can built a 7,500 rpm motor with beehive springs and get NO float. I would run a rev kit for the lifters, this would lighten up the wieght of the valve train on the rocker side. 11/32 or 8mm valve would also be done. Maybe titanium valves on the intake side only. I am running a motor with beehive spring and like the way it doesn't float at 6,000 rpm. I have a set of Edelbrocks that are tricked out with 2.25 valves and 11/32 stems intake, 11/32 stems on exhaust also. Trying to save wieght. I am trying to have this motor ready for next year R&G with a KCR custom roller cam. Looking for about 650 ft of torque and 575 hp from 498 cubes. TWM FI system 58mm throttle bodies, I will need all the air I can get from 2,700 rpm to 6,200 rpm, this will be my power range. 6,500 limiter chip. May change the gearing or trans gears to get the right setup. Will see. Rick

[Jerry Clayton]

Rick-----keep in mind that this guy is building an 1965 Comet AF/X clone

Back then they didn't turm 9000 rpm, we ran them mainly just a little over 6000rpm, we didn't check valves every 50 runs, we checked them every run, we didn't run 400 # seat pressure, we only ran 200+/- until just a few years ago .
We ran 11/32 valves and a lot of 5/16 stems---some titanium intakes but mostly stainless on the exhausts

You can't run an rev kit on an FE engine
The lifter bores didn't have oil galleys thru them( You should of seen the 16 3/16 stainless lines I ran to the lifter bosses on one for a hydraulic cam for our tow vehicle)
The early engines used a hollow deep lifter for a longer push rod, later they had cut away tappets and later used Falcon 6 cylinder tappets.
I also wired the dual point distributor so I could switch one set off to retard the timing in high gear and for starting.

Someone also loosened my oil filter when I was away from the car and that was almost a disaster.

Jerry

[Keithc8]

From what I read he wanted the best camshaft in the 2000 to 5000 range and that would be a hydraulic roller. I do not believe he is going to race the thing. He said it was a clone but he did not say he was going to race it. From the rpms he wants I would assume he is going to drive on the street and do some car shows with it.
The hydraulic roller cam and lifters run about 500.00 more than the flat tappet and will use the same pushrods and springs. The reason I use them is it takes about 3 hours of dyno time to break the camshaft in, check everything to make sure the camshaft is ok, then change the springs and run some more and then check the camshaft to make sure it is ok. If something does go wrong you are out way more than 500.00 and I do not have that kind of time to waste.
They used a bunch of technology 40 years ago that is out of date now. this is why a lot of the FE engines do not make any more power than they did 40 years ago. Build them the same and get the same results. I kind of like the new stuff that works better but that is just me. Good luck, Keith

[Excaliber]

From a commercial standpoint (reliable, time consuming, risk management, breakin routine) I can certainly understand a hydraulic application.

My labor is cheap enough (37 cents an hour ) that I choose to save a few bucks going flat tappet, PLUS I did want to build a more period correct type of motor. I like 'staying in touch' with my motor and the occasional valve adjustment is just part of the over all experience for me.

Strange thing, when I had the solid roller the profile started around 3000 rpm and then just exploded with power from there it sure was a rush! MAN that thing was FAST, or at least it FELT that way. I figure I gave up about 150 horse power (C.R. reduced from 12.5/1 to 9.6/1), milder cam (flat tappet) and smaller vacuum secondary carbs it didn't 'feel' as fast. But the 1/4 mile times were surprisingly close to what I had before, which blew me away! Gas mileage doubled, street manners are WAY better, power application is much 'smoother'. The smoother part is what fooled me, I was use to the explosion of power kind of feeling before. But that solid roller high compression motor was HELL to drive in traffic!

[feguy]

Step up to the new technology and make some HP. For the RPM's that you want to run, it's a no brainer. I just made 569 HP and 571 torque from a 428, .030 with ported Edelbrocks and a RPM intake, with a Hyd Roller cam. 569HP @5700!!!
With all the trouble of the flat tapper cam break-in these days, why not spend another $800.00 and get 50-60 more HP. That's only $15 per HP. Live in the past, get past results!!! Get a Roller!!! Get Fast!!!
Tom L

[eschaider]

Jerry,

You're right, just a little short of being an old fart.

Ran an Aluminum '63 Max Wedge car, then an Aluminum '64 Hemi car and built a 70 Pro-Stock Duster before NHRA convinced me I couldn't afford Pro-Stock. Switched to a home built rear engine T/F car in 72. We used a Ramchargers engine and ran the MidWest UDRA circuit. Lots of fun. Never could go back to N/A after the blower experience, that's why the blown Cobra.

While I didn't live in California then, we knew of you and saw you run out there more than once. You're car was gorgeous and impressively quick, you guys always put on a great show. Every once in a while I find myself wishing for the old days again.

Oh well there's still nostalgia T/F ...

Ed

[FFR428]

Don is your SO block drilled for oiling for hyd lifters?

[RICK LAKE]

Jerry C Like you in the old days we there spinning ahemi to 7,800 rpm, and yes Larry the owner and sucka$$ driver did miss a few shifts with a 4 spd. We went to a reverse Vitar manual body trans with lockout reverse. The valve adjustment was done after every round, the lifters where every 50 and cam lobes checked.We there running over 300 lbs of seat pressure on that hemi. That Racer Brown cam was hasty cam but great power from 3,000 to 7,000 rpm. We also had a switches for both of the points in the distributor, to run either one or both, advance the timing, or retard for track conditions. You would have to ask KCR when he was togeather with Kuntz about high rpm and reving FE motors. I believe they where in the 8,000 rpm range. The changes in motors from today and yesterday are more in the cam and heads than antwhere else. If you ran a motor with a windage tray, we never worried about oil problem to solid lifter motors. There was spray all over in the bottom end. Some guys ran bush bushing with a groove that went around the bore on a angle from top to bottom for solid lifter oiling. SBC grooved all the bores straight from top to bottom with any problems. As far a a rev kit Jerry, you can run this on any motor, yes you may need to modifly the oiling system like you did. They now have oil sprayers in all desiel motors for the bottom of the pistons. I asked Barry R about this for his EMC motors. There is about a 2% increase in power across the board. He declined the idea. PSE Paul and the crazy main oiling system. It worked if running a HPHV oil pump with 100 psi spring. Some guys forgot to cap off the oil galleys in the 2,4 main. They there the first to complain about it didn't work. Like you I wish I had the money to get into motor building and EMC. The computor is the best tool for build a motor and saving alot of time and money. One note that Variable cam timing kit from Isky ( I think) didn't work well. We tryed that in the early 80's. Valve stems are getting small and valve wieght lighter, As soon as they have a coating for the exhaust valves and the titianium can take alot more heat cycles that will be the new way and more power and less valve spring pressure will be needed. I was told by 2 different sources that they are still have a coating problem on titianium. GM should know when the LS crate motors came out and where recalled. They put stainless in there. The other thing is borilium valve seats, not cheap, stainless get pounded out. Later Rick l. Jerry how old do you need to be to be an OLD FART? I thought it was just smelly wind

[Jerry Clayton]

Wellllllll-----
I didn't say Old Fart---I just said old--

Now I'm going to say a few things that I want you all to think about and not just jump on the hydraulic roller band wagon( we use a lot of them too and I don't remember when I used a flat tappet solid lifter cam.


FIRST Mr. Kraft, Sir----there is nothing in what I said that should lead you or anyone to assume that I'm talking about anything that would normally see operation above the posters stated RPM range---a little over 6000 rpm would be right on target for a normal street range of 2500-5500.

Second----Those blocks weren't set up for hydraulic lifters----in fact in 1958 when they started putting hydraulics in some of the 332 and 352 they marked them with a splatch? of orange paint on the timing cover----The high per blocks WERE NOT drilled for oil to the lifters--this is a very delicate operation to do and most people won't be able to do it

The practice of restricting oil flow to the rocker shafts is a contributing factor to the flat tappet cams failing---there is then an lessor amount of oil returning to the sump to add to the oil for the cam. In the blocks that aren't drilled for hyd. lifters there is even less oil for the cam.

And the use of the new after market rods ---the hole that formally sprayed oil up in the crankcase has been removed--the only oil ( SPLASH< SLING< FLING, etc) for the cam now comes solely from the side clearance of the rods and it generally will be much tighter than stock resulting in even less oil on the cam---

In summation----people have done a number of things that have contributed to this problem in these engines, and the flat tappet cam gets blamed!!!!The cam failures are not just a result of poor oil, but a combined modernization process that has ignored basic mechanics and engineering---

I do agree that a modern Hydraulic roller is a way to get horse power---it just isn't in the FE high performance engines

In a standard 390 and all the 428 blocks the passages are drilled and a hydraulic setup will work, but not in the high performance blocks----

Jerry

[Jerry Clayton]

Kieth

Sorry about mis spelling your name, was thinking abiut what I was going to type

Jerry

[Jerry Clayton]

Rick Lake

Will you please tell me how to put a rev kit on an FE engine? and maybe a source for one?

As to the 300 # seat pressure---I never found a spring back then that would give over 240 and work on the lift we used---On a late model Mopar 426 hemi, there is a problem of valve intersect with extreme lift/duration and that is why they sorta fell from the ranks of prostock racing--the bbc and Ford Cleveland were much better. The amount of lift on the new race hemi is almost the same as the crank stroke!!!!but we're getting 1380hp from 500 inches

Jerry

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Tom Kirkham Dragonsnakes where all running Jag rearends? I thought some had a solid rearend. KCR had a set of pulleys ...

Yes the Dragonsnakes were using the same rear end (of course different gears) as all the other Cobras. Solid rear ends were NOT used in any of the original Cobras. Give me a call on the pulleys

[Excaliber]

I recall seeing a black and white picture of one of the original Cobra Drag cars in the pits with one or two straight axles (like from a 9" rear) standing upright by the car. The actual axle itself, not the housing. As I recall this picture led to some speculation that it was for the Cobra, therefore, the Cobra must have been running a 9" rear end. That may be where some of the confusion came from, ie straight axle in a Cobra.

[Jerry Clayton]

Ernie

Do you know where the Dragon Snake pic was taken? There used to be one that ran in some match races at Pheonix City Ala( when I was in Army) in 64/65. It had the almost standard issue ford 9 in with the welded on lower box links. Probably was changed by the racer if the car was built with a Jag rear.