Solid Roller vs. Hyd. Roller - Pros/Cons?

[Jerry Clayton]

Jamo

Your Corvette cam does not have a distributor drive gear.

Jerry

[Jamo]

Hehehe...I know....shhhhhhhh. And I've never had it fail either!

[Jerry Clayton]

Transferred to the joke thread

[Jamo]

...as opposed to the Chevy Forum.

[Dimis]

Ok I've read the thread... And still need help.

I'm still not convinced either way SOLID vs HYDRAULIC ROLLERS.
I am convinced flat tappets are NOT for me (sorry Patrick).

Can anyone tell me if there have been any advancements in the last 1/2dozen years that would help a hydraulic roller control the valve train at higher rpms, or any advances in solid roller technology that would minimize the maintenance requirements.

Reading Jay B book and anecdotal research tells me I can get a truck load more out of my TW intake by spinning past 6000rpm.
It's not that I'll ever need it just cruising the streets to work and back a couple days a week, but it's there, and the rest of the build is plenty strong enough to cope, so why not tap into it?

Yes, I want my cake and to eat it too... What's wrong with that!?

Ps. Break in is NOT a concern of mine, I'll pay a pro to do that, but annual maintenance will be.

What would you chose and why?


Many thanks.

[RICK LAKE]

dimis Need a number you are looking for. Whjat kind of power do you want from this? If you want your cake and eat it too, go to an LS motor or coyote motor. If you want a hydro cam shaft setup with rollers you are limited by weight. High oil pressure will pump up the lifter, need a high spring pressure, no little to no valve lash to stop valve staying open when you go into float. Max rpm will be about 6,400 rpm and this is pushing. If you want more than this, goto another motor like cleveland and rev the snot out of it. There is no rev kit made for roller motors in an FE yet. When there is, 7,500 will be no problem. The other thing is watching the valve spring numbers. I run beehive springs with 15 years on them. 120pounds closed 355 pounds open. Max rpms without power drop starting is 5,600 rpms if setup is done like cranes want with 1/2 turn after contact of rocker having no play on valve stem. Lets get some answers. Is it Foster time yet?? Rick

[750hp]

I haven't looked at the options available for FEs, but Morel hyd rollers are used past 8000rpm in other engine families.

For what it's worth, my FE has a solid flat tappet cam, which I planned to change as one of the first upgrades for when the car arrived. Turns out it's great just as is and I have no reason at all to change to hyd or solid roller.

[undy]

The trick to getting a hydraulic roller cam to go well past 7K rpm is a v-e-r-y light valve train.

1) As Rick said, beehive springs with Titanium retainers would be a good start.
(OEMs have already learned that)

2) Next you need light valves. Titanium intakes with Ferrera's hollow stem stainless intake valves would fill the bill.

3) Also, as Rick said, you'll need quality hi-rev anti-pump up hydraulic roller
lifters.

4) Another integral part of the recipie would be very light roller rockers.

If you've done all that then a hydraulic cam will rev to 7K, and well past.

Unfortunately, all this is just half of the equation. To achieve any form of longevity you need a light rotating assembly, pistons, rods and crank.

Chebby has accomplished all this in the C6 Z06, which I own. It has hi-rev lifters, bee-hive spings, titanium intake valves, hollow sodium filled exhaust valves, light forged crank, titanium rods and ultra-light Mahl cast pistons. It spins 7K easily, from the factory. With a small amount of mods, it'll go 7.5K. A lot of people are producing waaaay over 700 FWHP with these engines, in streetable trim and the engines are going 200K miles to boot.

To acomplish all this in a "dump truck motor" FE would be very expensive. To me, 6K rpm in this motor is really all I/you need. The heads, even with extensive porting, are very prohibitive to deep, hi-rev breathing. You can spin them higher, but with minimal benefit due to the head design. The LS7 heads flow 355 CFM on the intake side right from GM and with additional CNC porting they go well past 420 CFM @ 0.650" lift.

Food for thought...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dimis

I'm still not convinced either way SOLID vs HYDRAULIC ROLLERS. I am convinced flat tappets are NOT for me (sorry Patrick).

Did I read over on the FE forum that your reluctance to go with SFTs is the fact that they need to be periodically adjusted?

[blykins]

FE parts are big. Heavy .875" lifters, heavy valves with thick valve stems, fat heads, and long overall lengths, etc, etc.

There are lots of differences between the FE, the typical SBF, and the LS line of engines. These are not 7mm stems and .842" lifters...they are 2.250" valves with 11/32 or 3/8 stems and a longer length.

I've tried many combinations of parts on hydraulic roller FE's, with the exception of titanium valves. Paying $3-4k just for a set of valves is ludicrous for a street engine. I've tried Ferrea hollow stems, extreme spring pressures, titanium retainers, etc.

It's more of a challenge than just the normal combination of parts and usually 6000-6100 is all she wrote....and that includes using beehives, titanium retainers, hollow stem valves, etc, etc.

[CHANMADD]

The reason non hydraulic lifters wear out.......is because there is a space...( the valve lash) within which the lifter bounces......which in turn causes the wear of the lifter face and the cam.
With a hydraulic roller, the wheel on the bottom of the lifter is kept in constant contact with the cam lobe, just a wheel continuously running on a flat surface...........a solid roller lifter has the same problem as
solid roller in that it also has some lash which allows the lifter wheel to leave the surface of the cam, allowing it to hammer itself to death.......this is why the solid rollers die.........in a small Chevy and I am sure with some work it can be made to work in the Fords, there is a kit called a Rev kit .....nothing new....which is essentially some small pressure springs between the head qnd the lifter....solid lifter which keeps the lifter in constant cantqct with the cam........the other huge benefits of the are the the valve spring is not tqsked to control the lifter, and the valve spring can be much lighter pressure alleviating a lot of stresses on the valve train.....

[fordracing65]

6000rpm is still pretty high for the street. I guess it comes down to a little more maintenance on your part if you went solid...Either way it's a win...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

6000rpm is still pretty high for the street. I guess it comes down to a little more maintenance on your part if you went solid...Either way it's a win...

As a kid, I remember SFT cars that would go 50,000 miles without ever being lashed -- because their owners just never had it done.... And they were fine.

[blykins]

No way a rev kit could work with an fe. :-)

Bushed, pressure fed solid roller lifters go 25-30k miles before needing a rebuild.

[lippy]

Brent and I just went through this for my engine. The lifters we chose, and that he is referring to, are Isky bushed solid rollers. No needle bearings. The folks at Isky claim you can even go 50k mi (I'm dubious). This build can rev to 7k+ but doesn't use a completely radical cam or spring seat pressures. Brent can give you more details on the specs, but the performance is impressive - especially for the large amount of rotating mass in an FE. I will need to check the lash once in awhile, but no big deal.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Did I read over on the FE forum that your reluctance to go with SFTs is the fact that they need to be periodically adjusted?

Did you...?
There's plenty of chance I may be, but any chance that you may be mistaken?

Sorry mate, but flat tappets are not on the table...

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by lippy

Brent and I just went through this for my engine. The lifters we chose, and that he is referring to, are Isky bushed solid rollers. No needle bearings. The folks at Isky claim you can even go 50k mi (I'm dubious). This build can rev to 7k+ but doesn't use a completely radical cam or spring seat pressures. Brent can give you more details on the specs, but the performance is impressive - especially for the large amount of rotating mass in an FE. I will need to check the lash once in awhile, but no big deal.

I suspect IF I go the way of solid rollers Brent will packaging a similar set up.

Its a case of Hydraulics will work and work well, but solid will fulfill the intakes potential... either way is a win/win just not sure if I want to leave anything on the table.

[601HP]

Dimis,
Is setting valve lash the "annual maintenance" you're concerned about? If that's your remaining hurdle, I've been there and have easily gotten past it. I enjoy doing it now.

I've run solid rollers since 2003, about 10,000 miles worth, and plan to keep them. If you have any questions about my experience with them, I'll be glad to share.

David

[lippy]

Originally Posted by 601HP

Dimis,
Is setting valve lash the "annual maintenance" you're concerned about? If that's your remaining hurdle, I've been there and have easily gotten past it. I enjoy doing it now.

I've run solid rollers since 2003, about 10,000 miles worth, and plan to keep them. If you have any questions about my experience with them, I'll be glad to share.

David

David,
Which solid rollers do you have? How often do you check the lash, and has it ever required adjustment?
Lippy

[RICK LAKE]

Blykins Brent want to bet a lunch bill? If you go back to the old days, Isky had a rev kit for FE. In todays world we will have a rev kit again. Waiting on the Jay Brown PSE manifold. All the wishes will be filled.

As for roller or solid lifers, here a list of thing to extend life of them
1 no idling of the motor
2 correct lash on the tight side. HP lost but wear and life extended
3 OIL, OIL, OIL, Finding the best with the most protection against wear
4 oil pressure feed pin roller lifters
5 For high spring pressures and lift camshafts, bronze bushings and .904"
lifters from dodge
6 For an FE motor, high oil pressure in the 70-85 psi hot over 2,000 rpms.
7 If you have a great machinist add oil sprayers to motor for piston cooling and pin lube.
I have done and seen some of this done to other motors that are raced, An FE SO motor was not ment to be a 100,000 mile car motor. Made to race in NASCAR and 1/4 mile.

Dimis if you have silly money build the motor any way you like with either solids or rollers. Maintainance and good oil and suppliments are what is going to give your motor and lifters longer life. Chance of going 50K with out a rebuilt is small. It is possible. You didn't say anything about HP and torque for the motor you are building. With these numbers and head flow, you will answer your own questions. Max flow of the head is what? 350 cfm at .700". Put a cam shaft in the motor with a total of rocker arm and ratio to equal .700" total. anything more and you are just wasting motor and parts. Good luck Rick l.