Solid Roller vs. Hyd. Roller - Pros/Cons?

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by patrickt

All very valid points, and difficult to argue against. BUT, there is something to be said for the sound of a solid, flat tappet cam in an FE. I've never heard a hydraulic that came close to it. On the other hand, that sound doesn't mean much to a lot of people (and I've even on occasion had someone ask "Is your engine supposed to sound like that?")

True, there is no disputing that solid flat tappets sound great!

And I think you need a bigger wrench!

[Rick Parker]

BIG horse power doesn't mean squat if you can't 'hook it up'.

Thank you Ernie!

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

If you don't road race the car, a solid lifter cam won't make you happy.

This is catagorically false.I've had my solid falt tappet in the motor for 10 years now.No issues.So i run the valves once or twice a year,who gives a rats a$$?These are NOT maintenance free cars.

Something to look at other than the really important stuff like will your block even accept hydraulics, is the return on the dollar or bang for the buck.


What you will gain with roller anything over a solid flat-tappet ain't worth it.

[Cobrabill]

It's nice to see members of the BFW club.Club membership includes honorary membership in the BFH club.

[Excaliber]

Thats right Cobrabill, it's not the type of cam, it's the PROFILE that makes the difference.

In my case my original profile didn't like running below about 3000 rpm. My cruise rpm is around 2500 to 2800. My rear gear ratio is pretty high, sometimes I would use THIRD gear on the FREEWAY just to keep the rpm's high enough to keep the motor 'happy'. I could have stayed with solid roller and simply changed the profile to operate at a lower rpm range. But like Cobrabill said, it wasn't worth it.

Whats the point of having a solid roller if it aint about maximizing horse power? Well, bragging rights, and that should not so easily be dismissed. Our cars by their very nature are big on 'braggin' rights'. Maybe thats why I like flat tappet, 'manly' braggin' rights.

Now I KNOW hydraulics can be a good thing, but the minute I hear 'hydraulic' I think 'automatic trans' are great too! They just don't have the same 'braggin rights' a solid does.

[Cobrabill]

Here's an interesting poser for ya'll:Pick a popular flat tappet-cam that a lot of people are using.Doesn't matter wether it's GM,Ford or MOPAR.Now-try and find a roller cam with the same specs.You can't.Why?

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Here's an interesting poser for ya'll:Pick a popular flat tappet-cam that a lot of people are using.Doesn't matter wether it's GM,Ford or MOPAR.Now-try and find a roller cam with the same specs.You can't.Why?

Because due to the inherent differences in the designs of roller cam lobes and flat tappet cam lobes, a roller cam doesn't need to have the same specs as a flat tappet to make the same or more power!

[hi-tech cobra]

From what I have gathered so far:

1. Solid (non roller) lifters now have inferior metal and many have experienced break in failure. Is there a solid lifter that has the 'right stuff'? And is there a 'break in' oil with enough zinc to ensure proper run in?
2. Solid rollers are not reliable for mainly street use.
3. Hydraulic rollers work well and are expensive but are not manly.

[Excaliber]

I like #3...

I think it's somewhat misleading to conclude flat tappets are 'weak'. This WAS offered as one possible explanation of a sudden surge of flat tappet cam failure a few years ago. There is a possibility cheaper materials were used, and might STILL be used in the low cost arena! You do want to buy quality lifters/cams. But when the smoke cleared it was the opinion of most manufacturers that the EPA requirements on modern oil had eliminated certain components REQUIRED for flat tappets but NOT required for over head valve and hydraulic applications. Oil remains an issue, you MUST use the right oil/additives to ensure adequate lubrication. I use Shell Rotella and a can of STP myself...

[hi-tech cobra]

Excaliber ,

What brand solid lifters? What brand oil?

I'm getting ahead of myself but here goes. You personally did the break in for your solid lifter motor...what procedure did you follow to insure successful break in of lifters and cam?

[Excaliber]

You can pretty much catch the details in my engine blog, linked below my name. A good BRAND NAME cam and lifters should suffice. Avoid JC Whitney 'no name' specials. Shell Rotella, BUT, I'm always on the lookout for oil that has CHANGED and no longer offers the protection it USED to!

I understand Castrol has just very recently introduced an oil SPECIFICALLY targeting flat tappet cams. A direct result of the oil industry failures to address this problem in recent years.

[mr0077]

Check out this link from the FE Forum, a reply from Valvoline...VR1 is going into my motor at the next oil change.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...ge/1193494248/

[Cobrabill]

One of the cam companys make asolid flat tappet lifter called a "Cool face lifter"It has some time of oiling system for the face.I THINK its Crane.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

Because due to the inherent differences in the designs of roller cam lobes and flat tappet cam lobes, a roller cam doesn't need to have the same specs as a flat tappet to make the same or more power!

So, then a roller of the same specs would make much more power than the flat tappet.O.K.,if that's the case,then making a roller with with same lift & duration would be the perfect advertisment-"look how much more power our rollers make vs. a flat tappet".But they don't make the similiar speced cam.

Seems to me,they(the cam makers) DON'T WANT a side by side comparison.Because then people are going to see how much power they aren't getting for their $$$$$$.

[bobcowan]

>> I've had my solid falt tappet in the motor for 10 years now. <<

Bill, why? Not trying to be a smart guy, just figure you know something I don't. As I see it, the reason for a solid lifter and it's associated issues is the ability to rev to 7,000 rpm's. If you never do that, why install one?

Popular Hot Rodding did an excellent article last year. They compared a roller to a flat. They picked cams of similar specs to make it as close as possible. As it turned out, the roller cam started to make more power once it got fairly "big". I can't remember the exact specs, but it seemed like anything over 270'ish or 280'ish in advertised duration the roller made more power. Below that, it was a wash. Wish I had saved that article, it was good.

Last month they did an article about hydraulic vs. solid. That was also very interesting. If I was at home I'd look it up.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

>> I've had my solid falt tappet in the motor for 10 years now. <<

Bill, why? Not trying to be a smart guy, just figure you know something I don't. As I see it, the reason for a solid lifter and it's associated issues is the ability to rev to 7,000 rpm's. If you never do that, why install one?

Popular Hot Rodding did an excellent article last year. They compared a roller to a flat. They picked cams of similar specs to make it as close as possible. As it turned out, the roller cam started to make more power once it got fairly "big". I can't remember the exact specs, but it seemed like anything over 270'ish or 280'ish in advertised duration the roller made more power. Below that, it was a wash. Wish I had saved that article, it was good.

Last month they did an article about hydraulic vs. solid. That was also very interesting. If I was at home I'd look it up.

Bob-first off,i have a side-oiler.The block isn't drilled for hydraulics.Second,i'm not afraid to run the valves every once in awhile.Third-I do take it to 7,000.And even if i don't ,i have no worries about floating a lifter.Also,back in 96 when i built the motor,adapting rollers to ancient iron was VERY "ify".There was a very big issue with the bearings staying in the rollers.If just one lifter loses it's bearings,it's time to tear the motor down.I love my side-oiler too much to risk that.

Below 280ish is a wash?i believe that and that's where a LOT of street motor cams reside.Now if i was building a track motor(something that idled around 2500 rpm)i probably would be looking at a solid roller.But i see no need for hydraulic anything.

"close as possible"is "No Cigar"to me.Still no roller cams with the SAME lift & duration as a flat-tappet.

Post that article if you can.Thanx.

[Excaliber]

Cobrabill, seems to me I'ver heard of them new style lifters with the special bottom, sounds good, might be a bit pricey though. I'd be tempted to spend the extra dollars...

All kidding aside, being 'manly' is not a good reason for buying a cam. Real men will make the appropriate decision for themselves. If thats a roller hydraulic, well then heck with what the other guys think.

[Cobrabill]

Manly men running Manley valves?

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Bob-first off,i have a side-oiler.The block isn't drilled for hydraulics.Second,i'm not afraid to run the valves every once in awhile.Third-I do take it to 7,000.And even if i don't ,i have no worries about floating a lifter.Also,back in 96 when i built the motor,adapting rollers to ancient iron was VERY "ify".There was a very big issue with the bearings staying in the rollers.If just one lifter loses it's bearings,it's time to tear the motor down.I love my side-oiler too much to risk that.

Below 280ish is a wash?i believe that and that's where a LOT of street motor cams reside.Now if i was building a track motor(something that idled around 2500 rpm)i probably would be looking at a solid roller.But i see no need for hydraulic anything.

"close as possible"is "No Cigar"to me.Still no roller cams with the SAME lift & duration as a flat-tappet.
Post that article if you can.Thanx.

They are entirey different designs- why would you expect the specs to be the same? That is the whole point- you can make as much or more with less. And what does the fact that the specs are not identical prove (other than that they are different designs)? I don't think it is a conspiracy of the part of the cam manufactures to prevent gear heads from learning the truth. Fact of the matter is, there will always be applications for both so they need to continue making both and comparing apples to oranges wouldn't really serve any purpose. What use would making a roller cam with the same specs as your solid cam be in your non-hyd block ? It would be useless to you.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

What use would making a roller cam with the same specs as your solid cam be in your non-hyd block ? It would be useless to you.

HUH