Solid Roller vs. Hyd. Roller - Pros/Cons?

[Chaplin]

Read it in conjunction with the sentence before it and it will make sense to you.

[767Jockey]

OK - probably a dumb question, but here goes. I love the sound of solid lifters. It appeals to the "old school" in me. Do solid rollers make the same sound as solid flat lifters?

[concobra]

Hello Hi Tech

It is not very often I voice in on issues on this site as there are many well educated and experienced individuals that respond to inquiries. This is the case here but just for fun I thought I might put in some thoughts.

When it comes to which type of the four lifter designs commented on here is best is really not an single answerable question. Each type has it's own merits and short comings. To say one is best is short sighted and doesn't leave thought to the merits of the other designs. There is no magic pill here.

I would submit that the ball is really still in your court as you must define exactly what you intend your car and your engine to be able to do.

How will you drive the car?
What will be those driving conditions?
What kind of power you want the engine to make? Be real here.
Where does engine maintenance fall as a priority?
How many running hours do you intend this engine to last before maintenance?
And many other questions need answers.

These may seem silly questions that, of course, would seem to have obvious answers. But I submit they are not. If you take the time to seriously consider your expectations and realistically look at the constraints your driving environment place on your car and engine you will find that the question of camshaft selection is very complicated one. The better you understand your engine expectations the better you can establish the type of cam the best works for your driving needs.

Allow me to qualify my opinion. I run a selective engine shop that focuses on building engines for Cobras, High end Street rods, and Muscle cars. Each engine that leaves my shop is built to the exact standards that the customer and I agree services their specific needs and their cars' specific needs. Experience has taught me that owner expectations and actual engine requirements are never the same and most of my pre-engine building time is spent defining what this customer wants. This can take days of conversations not just two or three calls. I insist on meeting the customer face to face and going over every single factor that this customer wants to cover and explaining to him why or why not his ideas will work. At the price of high end engines, the importance of my reputation to me, and satisfaction of knowing the customer is truly pleased with his end product this front end time is my highest priority.

Just as no crate engine can specifically service a car and owner needs. No single cam design can be considered good or bad. It is simply too generic of a question. Define your needs then ask the question.

Good Luck with your car.

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Bob-first off,i have a side-oiler.The block isn't drilled for hydraulics.Second,i'm not afraid to run the valves every once in awhile.Third-I do take it to 7,000.And even if i don't ,i have no worries about floating a lifter.Also,back in 96 when i built the motor,adapting rollers to ancient iron was VERY "ify".There was a very big issue with the bearings staying in the rollers.If just one lifter loses it's bearings,it's time to tear the motor down.I love my side-oiler too much to risk that.

.

Ahh, that makes sense. I knew there was something I didn't know. I'm a small block guy, always looking to learn something new. Thanx.

As for the article, I have it at home somewhere. But I don't think I could post it because of copyright rules. There are some good tech articles on their web site, though. Their article on cam basics is a lot more thorough than most mags print.

[Jamo]

OK...first thing is, we're talking FEs...there are some things to consider for just FEs that aren't a problem for small blocks, Chevys or 385 Fords.

Solid roller cams and distributor gears. I and others have talked about it enough in the past few years, but nobody brought it up in detail here, so here goes (again).

I started off with a custom Clay Smith solid roller in a motor full of good stuff (482ci Shelby block, Velasco crank, Manleys, C-Ps, T&D top end stuff, etc.). 680 lift, 270 duration at .050...in other words, pretty damn big.

IN FEs....you could not not get a hardened cam gear for solid rollers, which meant you had to run a bronze gear. Cam builders do add hardened cam gears for Ford small blocks and SB/BB Chevys and even the 385 Fords...just not FEs (unless someone started doing it in the past year). Bronze gears break...alot...at 10,000 feet in the Sierras...at the track...around town. They are just fine when you tear down your motor after every race or after several passes down the track. They are meant to be disposable items. They run the damn hi-volume oil pumps we all tend to use to keep pressure up...and they don't like that. I have several as paper weights.

Supposedly, there are some "plastic" (or some such sh!t) distributor gears that have come out in the past few years which won't eat up your cam gear. Haven't heard of anyone putting thousands of miles on them in FEs...not saying they don't work, but haven't heard of such stories here or elsewhere where FEs are discussed regularly.

I have a slightly used Clay Smith solid roller cam now sitting on the shelf now...offers over $750 are being accepted.

Went to a slightly bigger custom Clay Smith solid flat tappet. I use an iron gear at the bottom of the MSD. Not one freeking problem in the past three years. And anybody that's driven with me knows I don't baby it on the track (or the street, for that matter). I've been using VR1 50w in the summer and 20/50w in the winter.

If someone has solved the solid roller cam/distributor gear issue FOR FEs...and can prove it with thousands of miles, great! Go for it and enjoy the first 1,000 miles of not having to break it in. Just don't let it idle as you sit in traffic and keep blipping your throttle (we all do anyway) so you keep splashing oil on them little basturds with the needle bearings at the bottom of the pushrods. Ever see what a solid roller lifter does to a cam when the needle bearings let go? As Bill alludes to, it is the perfect cutting tool. Pretty damn sure they use them in Amsterdam to cut diamonds.

If not, go with a solid flat tappet, or go with a hydraulic roller cam. Given Keith's work over the past several years with the latter in matching them up with FEs (especially modern FE-style arruminum blocks with the lubrication needed), there is assolutely no reason not to if you want carefree power for street as well as enough for track use.

Bottom line, if I ever build another FE monster (if this sumb!tch ever breaks)...I'm going hydraulic roller, even if they do come up with the world's greatest distributor gear for solid rollers. The ticking sounds nice, but my pipes are so loud I won't miss it much.

One thing I always advise my clients...don't be the test case. It gets expensive even if you end up being right.

[Excaliber]

Good point Jamo, worth repeating! I had to replace my distributor gear a couple of times myself with that stinkin' solid roller. The only good thing about loosing a lifter (and the cam) was it gave me a good excuse to redo the motor the way I wanted to anyway.

Those new solid roller lifters with oil pressure feed likely cost more than a comparable hydraulic roller, but you still have no gaurentee how long the distributor gear will last!

[Jamo]

Yup...PITA. I had a "Distributor Gear Replacement Kit-Premium Model" which included one predrilled gear, one tube of lube, one gear puller, one pin and one Buckley.

I forgot to add...a dry sump will solve the bronze gear problem (or a least drastically reduce the problem)...no pump to run off the gear.

BTW, besides going to the iron gear, I had it and the distributor shaft drilled out to take the bigger Chevy pin (I was starting to collect broken pins too).

[Naumoff]

Jamo,
Is your Shelby block drilled for hydraulic lifters? Or should I ask, Did it come already drilled for hydraulic lifters?
Just curious.






* note: Crane offers a harden steel gear for their Hydraulic rollers now.








*This info is not for Jamo

[Chaplin]

Tony-
Shelby blocks come ready to run hyd lifters

And I am going to be using Crane's new steel dist. gear on my hyd roller.

[hi-tech cobra]

concobra, Great information! Lots to chew on.

Jamo, I have narrowed it down to two ways: solid or hydraulic roller. If I go solid, what brand is best (CC, Crane, Crower...)? And the same for hydr. roller?

I am going to make a Excel spreadsheet for my 427fe engine build (unless someone has already done it, and would let me have one). Can someone provide me with a parts list for the complete engine? I'm talking from oil pan to carb, from belts/pulleys to bellhousing.

Thanks

[Chaplin]

Hi-Tech-

If you are going to use the car on the street, you should definetely go with a hyd roller instead of a solid roller. Just ask Ernie about the street-life of solid roller lifters.

You won't have any problems with Crane, Comps Cams or Crower. However, to my knowledge, Crane is the only one that makes the hyd roller lifters for FEs. So no matter which cam you get, you will have to use Crane hyd roller lifters.

[Excaliber]

I don't know if hydraulic rollers have the distributor gear failures like the solid rollers do. I haven't heard nor do I personally know anyone running a hyd solid. But like THIS thread, we almost over looked that nasty little piece of advice, good thing Jamo chimed in!

So what about the hyd rollers and dist gears? Anyone heard anything?

[Chaplin]

Ernie-
Dist gears for hyd rollers are a non-issue at this point. As Tony noted above, Crane now makes a special hardened steel dist. gear for roller cams which apparently has the same life expectancy of an OEM dist. gear. I believe KC has been installing these gears for some time now without a problem.

See the below link. Even though there is not a part # listed for FEs, if you have the MSD dist. with the .531 shaft diameter, it uses the same dist. gear as the 429s, part # 52971-1

http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/Page536.pdf

[69boss429]

Well,mine isn't a Cobra or an FE but just to share my experiance,I installed a solid roller in my Boss 429 and got about 1500 miles on it before a roller broke,wiped out the cam,and caused a total rebuild to happen.
The original lifters had no oil hole to the wheel.
Being a glutton for punishment,I bought the same cam but with the "new" improved lifters with oiling hole to the wheel.
Worked fine,but the excessive seat pressure and the constant valve adjustement because of worry about another failure made me go to a hyd roller.The engine only lost 15 HP on the dyno and I'm not racing or running it above 6500 rpm on the street.But less maintenance is a big plus.
As for the sound of solids,I'll leave that for the track machines.
On the issue of dist gears,we drilled a very small hole in one of the front oil galley plugs and aimed it at the gear.Constant oiling has got to help.

[Barry_R]

Geez - - I must be the luckiest guy in town.

This is kind of a general answer - so its a little long winded...sorry. Its also only opinion - my opinion - for whatever its worth.

I ran a solid roller FE on the street for over a decade with zero lifter failures and a total of two bronze gears - I changed the first one only because the new MSD distributor has a larger shaft diameter. If you have good springs and maintain them, along with a standard volume oil pump, a bit of lube, and proper cam thrust play - things seem to last OK. Crane sells a very durable steel distributor gear as a great option.

There is really no discernable difference in sound between a solid roller and a solid flat tappet. The reason most solid flat tappets are larger is because racing is the environment the technology came from - smaller solid rollers are becoming more readily available and can always be custom ground. The reason you can't find matching profiles is that they really dont match at all during the opening event portion of the cycle - a roller cam starts out moving tangent to the axle centerline while a flat tappet starts at the edge. The popular @ .050 numbers are not really comparable - a larger solid roller number will idle similar to a slightly smaller flat tappet.

The deal with little needles would be as big a problem with a juice roller as a solid. The only differrence is that the hydraulic does the maintenece for you. What kills lifters is not too much spring - its too little. I like the Comp or Manley oval track springs - they cost more but last far longer, and have only enough pressure to do the job - coupled with a slower rate of degradation than drag race style springs.

And lash. Lash should be at the minimum needed to keep the valves closed when cold - roller bearings have poor impact resistance - I would not want to be much more than .016-.018 hot on a street aluminum head iron block application.

Hydraulic rollers are definitely OK for cruising - but are RPM limited - so far I have not had a lot of luck with them beyond 6000.....

[patrickt]

In view of Barry's post, Hi-Tech you now have our permission to buy your solid roller. (Now watch the rollers disintegrate in six months. )

[hi-tech cobra]

Barry, sent you PM.

[Tom Wells]

Barry,

No disrespect or sarcasm intended - just looking for facts:

I ran a solid roller FE on the street for over a decade

How many miles did you accumulate in that time? Was there any significant "in traffic" idling time involved like maybe an hour or more at a time?

Tom

[Jamo]

Note Barry R. refers to using a standard volume oil pump.

I was particularly specific about the fact I (and many others around here) use hi-volume oil pumps, and that these were a particular problem for the bronze gears.

Driving on the street vs. some track time...no way of knowing.

I had a good friend who ran a solid roller in an FE for several years with no problem either. That's two of you.

Crane's steel gear is NOT an option with a solid roller cam which was not designed for it. The reason...you really don't want a $100 distributor gear chewing up a $1,000 cam.

69Boss429...yup, did the same thing with a small hole, which is a smart play, but your final solution (hydraulic) is even smarter IMHO.

Oinie...it's all in what is fitted to the cam. Hydraulic cams tend to come with hardened cam gears, which allows fitment of harder distributor gear materials (steel or iron). That's what Keith uses, and presumably that solves the problem as far as surface matching.

Remember...correct alignment of the distributor gear is critical. Folks should do a search here as to how to measure before one drills a hole. And again, I really recommend using a bigger Chevy pin...be pragmatic, it'll be the only Chevy part in your FE.

[Barry_R]

Ummmm....

Yes.

The car was (and is) my "69 Torino street racer/cruiser. Runs 10.20s on motor at 3627lbs. Its been both a driver and a racer the whole time. It was in the NHRA Division 3 Bracket Finals (one of the top 8 points cars at the now defunct local track) seven times. It was in the 2004 Hot Rod Pump Gas Drags where it spun the tires on pass #3 and averaged 10.80 after a 35 mile drive in rush hour. Its been a regular in the Woodward Dream Cruise including the rolling parking lot Friday evening parade in Berkely.

Crane's steel gear is fine on a steel cam - - pretty well proven by my friend Jay Brown who has run his solid roller cammed FE in the Hot Rod Drag Week competition a couple times now (with one win and one runner up) - for those who don't follow that, its a 1500 mile drive with a drag strip at each stop.

Every new car and million mile semi in the country has rollers in the lifters. Does that needle roller bearing know whether the guts above are solid or filled with oil?????

I do the big Chevy pin too....its a good idea.