Solid Roller vs. Hyd. Roller - Pros/Cons?

[jdog]

When I told my engine builder what I wanted for an engine, (65'-66' 427fe sideoiler iron block w/600hp), my only option was a solid roller!

And now, after a little over a year, & 2500 miles, everything is good!

jdog

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

I posted the same link 2 pages back. It hasn't gotten any better since I posted it

Hey Chappie...damn good link!

Nothing sadder than lawyers with bruised egos.

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by xracerbob

I would return the sbf Lakewood and get a Quicktime bellhousing instead. Much nicer piece. I would use the Jegs credit for nice pulleys or other go fast stuff.

http://www.quicktimeinc.com/products.html

I would go with the Quicktime too. Less weight and although it should be checked, so far no reported dial in issues. It is not as bulky and it is reported cutting off the flange on the bottom is not needed.

And ditto what Chaplin said.

[Barry_R]

I seem to have no real problem with the Scat crank's having no seal "knurl". the knurl was very common on OE cranks in the days of rope seals, and carried over for many years after they went to neoprene. If you look at the neoprene or viton seals they often have those grooves/knurls molded into the seal lip. Most new OE cranks do not use the knurled rear surface anymore.

FE's still seem to be an oil leak waiting to happen though. Even when they go together and dyno run dry it's not unusual for them to seep somewhere down the road. I think Keith Craft touched on this subject in another thread a few months ago.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

FE's still seem to be an oil leak waiting to happen though. Even when they go together and dyno run dry it's not unusual for them to seep somewhere down the road.

Hi-Tech, the rear seal with my SCAT is nicely dry. Nevertheless, the FE rule is "three drops or less is considered bone dry." Intakes and valve covers are other trouble spots. Although with a hydraulic cam you have the luxury of not having to pull the valve covers as often (so you can use stronger goo on them).

[RICK LAKE]

Hi-tech cobra I got a stroker kit from Barry R. The crank doesn't have grooves for the rear main seal, ran the motor and raced for 3 days. No oil leak from rear main seal yet . Stroker kit worked great, dropped right in, filed rings for correct gap. As far a a roller cam, I am running the small crane hydro roller .587-.607" lift one with a 484 kit. Car idles nice and runs strong. I only had 20 minutes of breakin and raced for 3 days without any problems. Unless you are going to turn 7,000 rpm+ put hydro lifters in your motor if you can. Once my motor is broken in I will limit the rpm to 6,500 rpm. I built a strong broad range torque motor from 2,000 rpm to 5,700rpm with the HP topping out at 6,200 rpm. Spinning the motor any higher is just wasteing motor. If you are worried about pumpup for valve float, here is what I have done, I put a setof beehive springs,#26120 from comp in my valve train. With the swap a removed 44 grams per valve and 5/16 hollow pushrods with heavy tubes. I can wind the motor to 6,500 without any float. KCR sell some nice custom cams for hydro roller lifters with under .650" lift. I have one for my next motor,a 498 I am using his cam, .622". I have a set of Edelbrock heads, worked to the max with11/32 valves and 360cfm+ flow. I have the T&D setup for these heads. I would tell you to get a set of Erson rockers for your edelbrock heads and save the money on the machine work and the different between Ersons and T&D. Maybe KCR will honor what you have for credit. I think you will be happy with one of his custom cams. There is nothing wrong with the crane cam either. For the distributor gear, go with the cam company and what they say. I have a polymer carbon gear on my MSD with a HVHP mellings oil pump. I also am running a 100 psi spring in the pump. When cold a get 125-130 psi until the oil and motor warm up a little. I also have the oil dripping where the 2 gears meet to help stop wear and tear. Do your self a favor and buy a accusump 3 qrt. tank and hook it up to the motor oiling system and use it as a preoiler before you start your motor. This will stop 90% of the dry starts and limit wear. You can use a toggle switch to turn on and off. Run the Hydro's, do less maintainence on the motor and enjoy the car more.You are NOT driving and having the motor at 6,000RPM all the time so skip the solid lifters. Your driving and application doesn't need them. As for noise, You have sidepipes, sweet music, you will not hear those solids anyway. you will if the clearances are too big. Rick L.

[RICK LAKE]

Barry R. Not excepting the apologize for the solid lifter running, you set the motor up correctly and maintained it for the right clearances. You also had a little luck too You have built motors for the EMC and giving the whole FE family something to be proud of. The stroker kit you sold me worked perfect as you said, motor ran strong, and as of right now there is no oil leak from the rear main seal area. I hope you keep pushing the FE motor to the front of the line, it's a great motor and getting better thanks to your hard work and skill. As far as running your solid lifter car for 12-15k miles, sound like the right parts and clearances put togeather. AGAIN stuff your apology You are doing great work. Have a good evening. Another happy buyer of Barry R's parts. Rick L.

[jdog]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

FE's still seem to be an oil leak waiting to happen though. Even when they go together and dyno run dry it's not unusual for them to seep somewhere down the road. I think Keith Craft touched on this subject in another thread a few months ago.

This is why I painted my engine block black! I don't want to see where every little leak is!

jdog

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I ran a solid roller FE on the street for over a decade with zero lifter failures and a total of two bronze gears - I changed the first one only because the new MSD distributor has a larger shaft diameter. --- Crane sells a very durable steel distributor gear as a great option.


What kills lifters is not too much spring - its too little.

And lash. Lash should be at the minimum needed to keep the valves closed when cold - roller bearings have poor impact resistance - I would not want to be much more than .016-.018 hot on a street aluminum head iron block application.

Hydraulic rollers are definitely OK for cruising - but are RPM limited - so far I have not had a lot of luck with them beyond 6000.....

That's kind of what I have heard, the pounding on the needle bearings does them in. With an all aluminum engine, there is about 0.013" growth in lash from cold to hot, at least in my engine.

Originally Posted by Jamo

Note Barry R. refers to using a standard volume oil pump.

I was particularly specific about the fact I (and many others around here) use hi-volume oil pumps, and that these were a particular problem for the bronze gears.


Crane's steel gear is NOT an option with a solid roller cam which does NOT have a hardened cam gear. :

It was my understanding that the majority of solid roller cams are made from billlet steel, with "billet / steel" distributor gears.

I ran a bronze, and after about 1000 miles, there was wear. With the crane steel gear, there is no wear, but the face of the teeth are shiny at the point of contact. I would probably run oil with alot of zinc in it to help with gear wear.

[Excaliber]

My hearing is shot, and with the sidepipes, not a prayer of hearing a loose lifter.

I'm surprised this thread has gone on so long and actually been so productive. The issue has been discussed before, but this may the best information on the subject to date.

[Jamo]

Anthony...where did you get that understanding?

Did your mfg say to use the steel gear? How many miles on it?

Maybe you missed this link posted by Barry (and Chaplin!): http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...&lvl=3&prt=113

[Chaplin]

.........

[hi-tech cobra]

What about the Crower "Cool Face" solid lifters?

Go to page 119 in this catalog.
http://crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml

[RICK LAKE]

hi tech cobra Sorry I am keeping a spare motor complete just like the racers. I have everything a need to repair my car when I go to Run&Gun, 2 trans, spare rears, 3.07 and another 3.31. all the bearings and seals to rebuild one. 2 trans for the car 5 spd and 6 spd. motor hoist. I drive 1K miles to play, the car breaking is not stopping me from my fun and vacation. Last year I took time out to pull the trans axle on Hersch Byrds GT-40 which broke the starter. The ring on the flywheel was toast but the clutch was ok. They but the car back togeather and push start the car, he got to run on the road course and drag race without a starter. Lew Paine had a flaming river rack with a bad inner tierod end. I used my trailer to take him to Granite city to find one. I got yelled at for going through the tunnel with my rig. I blamed it on a full moon I used up my mulligan for the week. Took half the day to find a rack. That sucked. A manufacture at R&G sold one off his show car and lew got to race. If you look on E-bay or FE forum you may find a set of heads, call me for some other info. Rick L.

[Jamo]

Rick Lake Rick since you have always been willing to help others (including Hoish) at the drop of a hat I took the liberty of editing your latest post. You're most welcome...kiss mine first.


hi tech cobra

Sorry, I am keeping a spare motor complete just like the racers. I have everything needed to repair my car when I go to Run&Gun: 2 trans, spare rears, 3.07 and another 3.31, with all the bearings and seals to rebuild one. 2 trans for the car (5 spd and 6 spd.), and a motor hoist. I drive 1K miles to play, the car breaking is not stopping me from my fun and vacation.

Last year, I took time out to pull the trans axle on Hersch Byrd's GT-40, which broke the starter. The ring on the flywheel was toast, but the clutch was ok. They put the car back together and push started the car. He got to run on the road course and drag race without a starter.

Lew Paine had a Flaming River rack with a bad inner tie rod end. I used my trailer to take him to Granite City to find one. I got yelled at for going through the tunnel with my rig. I blamed it on a full moon. I used up my mulligan for the week. Took half the day to find a rack. That sucked. A manufacture at R&G sold one off his show car and Lew got to race.

If you look on E-bay or FE Forum, you may find a set of heads. Call me for some other info.

Rick L.

[RICK LAKE]

Jamo, not sure what I did wrong that I needed to be edited, Can I have a mulligan for the opps? As far as kissing, I failed that course in school and in life. Sucking up is out too. This is why I am out of work. Besides you are the wrong sex for me. Rick

[DMXF]

Excuse me guys, but if anyone is interested in a set of top shelf solid roller lifters for the FE, I have a set available posted in the CC for sale section: http://www.clubcobra.com/classifieds...hp?product=897 Thanks

[Jamo]

Rick...just some typos, paragraph breaks, periods, commas, colons, etc. Nothing to worry about. We're here for ya buddy.

[patrickt]

Hi-Tech, the Blue Thunder Stage X Heads with the Ersons instead of the T&D setup appears to be a killer deal. You might want to check this thread out:http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...and+correction

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Anthony...where did you get that understanding?

from talking to several engine builders, one of them Rob ?McQuarie of Blue Oval Performance in CO.

Originally Posted by Jamo

Did your mfg say to use the steel gear?

If I remember correctly, the Crane custom ground solid roller came with instructions to either use the bronze gear or their steel gear.

Originally Posted by Jamo

How many miles on it?

About 800 miles on the bronze gear which was visably worn. About 500 miles on the crane steel gear which only showed "polished" aspect area on gear contact area.

Originally Posted by Jamo

Maybe you missed this link posted by Barry (and Chaplin!): http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...&lvl=3&prt=113

No I didn't. That's the gear that I am running.