Solid Roller vs. Hyd. Roller - Pros/Cons?

[Jamo]

Cool...then you have exactly what I was talking about. Since yours was a custom grind, they obviously pressed on a hardened cam gear, or used harder material to begin with as is mentioned in the article for their new series. Just because something is made from a "billit" it does not mean it is hardened.

Note that your comment was that a majority of billet solid roller cams could use a steel distributor gear. As the linked article, and experience of folks here indicates, that's not true...at least not for FEs. The majority of Chevys, small blocks and even 385 Ford fitments...yes (for several years, in fact). Truth is...the mfgs developed hardened pressed on cam gears or materials for the cams themselves for the more popular motors being used. Before aluminum blocks, FEs simply weren't used in the same numbers as SB and BB Chevys, SB and 385 Fords, etc. If you go on Pantera sites, you'll find they had much the same problem as FE folks...simply because Clevelands (the fitment for Panteras) weren't as popular as Windsors.

I could only respond to what you asked, Anthony. Hope your experience of 500 miles continues....it would be good news for everyone with FEs who want to run a solid roller, if they choose to do so. I normally got about 1500 miles on a bronze gear before it busted or I would swap it out (and it would be razor sharp from wear at that).

After folks report thousands of miles on FEs with the new steel gear fitment, I may give it a try myself. Should work though, given the experience gained with other engine fitments. Good luck!

Keep blipping the throttle!

[Anthony]

I don't think the gear was pressed on my camshaft. I think it's a solid one piece. I'll have to check it tomorrow.

I was under the impression that alot of the "factory replacement" roller cams have the iron gears pressed on, and these gears were not on any of the "true" roller cams for engines not originally equipped with roller cams/lifters.

[Jamo]

Again, since it was a custom grind...it may have simply been hardened material to begin with.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying in your second statement. "Factory replacement" of what engine/car? "True" roller cams? As several of us have noted, most factory hydraulic rollers used for the past decade or so in such things as my new Vette do indeed have pressed on iron gears. The hydraulic rollers being used in the FEs generally have them as well, or are hardened steel to begin with.

In the old days...as it were...bronze gears had to be used. Maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Anthony]

The instructions state

"the distributor drive gear on this camshaft has been lubricated to prevent wear. We highly recommend the use of an aluminum bronze gear, or a steel gear specifically manufactured for steel camshafts, on the distributor. 4/00"


I think a "steel" cam and a billet cam are one of the same, not to be confused with a cast iron cam / gear. New "factory" cars/engines with roller cams I think are made from cast iron, I really measn the gears, not steel like many of the solid roller cams in the past.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I'm trying to understand what you're saying in your second statement. "Factory replacement" of what engine/car? "True" roller cams? As several of us have noted, most factory hydraulic rollers used for the past decade or so in such things as my new Vette do indeed have pressed on iron gears. The hydraulic rollers being used in the FEs generally have them as well, or are hardened steel to begin with.

Excuse me if I'm telling you something you already know, but,

When I say "factory roller", I mean equipped from the OEM car manufacturer with a roller cam, i.e. hydraulic roller, as I don;t know of any cars equipped with a solid roller. I believe all of these cars either had cast roller cam cores, or came with cast iron pressed on gears, compatible with cast iron gears on the distributors, as originally equipped. If some company is going to make a replacement cam for these cars, I would guess they would make a cam compatible with the cars existing distributor, and use pressed on cast iron gears.

When I say "true roller" I mean the "all out competition" roller cams that have been made for decades for performance usage only, i.e. solid rollers, made from billet, steel blanks, with the gears machined from the blank as well. Steel is harder than cast iron, and using a cast iron distributor gear will result in wear necessitating changing the distrributor gear.

That's my understanding.

[Jamo]

No, a steel cam and a steel billet cam are not necessarily one in the same...

I have a hardened non-billet steel flat tappet that I run an iron gear with. That's fairly common. You can also run steel gears with them.

Here's the thing. Billet cams are expensive. Unless they have a pressed on cam gear or are hardened, they stand the chance of being eaten up by a steel or iron gear, and they will take out asspensive stuff associated with them (the lifters, etc.). That's why the sacrifical lamb was developed...the bronze gear (they are all an arruminum alloy...pure bronze would last one revolution or so). Since solid rollers were typically being used in racing applications, it was no big deal since racers tear down their motors alot.

As to what current mfgs use for hydraulic cams (don't know of any mass produced solid roller cammed motors)...I would think they would use steel, but I don't really know what the percentage is.

[Jamo]

Oops..our posts passed in the internet.

[Barry_R]

Every single FE roller cam I have ever had (and I've had quite a few) is made of steel with one piece construction including the gear.

You get either the copper color between the lobes (gas nitride heat treatment - the copper keeps the core soft) - or you get the gray steel color (induction hardened - the machine steps the cam down and only heats/hardens the lobes). Both are essentially similar in hardness and gear metallurgy.

As far as I've been able to tell the Crane steel gear works well on either type - no 100,000 mile motors yet...

I see most OE cams as being SADI material - special austempered ductile iron. These are usually induction hardened with an intergral gear. The distributor gear on these is a specialty steel - and is doubtless the inspiration for Crane's gear alloy.

[Jamo]

Anthony

Having read your post, I suppose that's true re the factory mfg cams.

But that's not the case with the solid rollers initially made from billet...they called for the bronze gears (again, being the cheaper and easier to replace element). Even now, by using an iron gear, I would want it to wear out before the flat tappet cam gear does.

Matching hardness or softer distributor gear is ok...not harder.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Every single FE roller cam I have ever had (and I've had quite a few) is made of steel with one piece construction including the gear.

You get either the copper color between the lobes (gas nitride heat treatment - the copper keeps the core soft) - or you get the gray steel color (induction hardened - the machine steps the cam down and only heats/hardens the lobes). Both are essentially similar in hardness and gear metallurgy.

As far as I've been able to tell the Crane steel gear works well on either type - no 100,000 mile motors yet...

I agree...I've never heard of a solid roller with a pressed on iron gear for an FE (and I looked long and hard)...other engines and hydraulics, as I indicated, yes.

Hope the Crane gear keeps working. If not, the poly gears also hold promise. It may be that solid roller cams will be really viable for street FEs in the near future without taking much of a chance.

Without going into a Copplesque description, I want to continue driving through Death Valley in the summer, drive several hundred miles one wa to Northern California, drive through stop and go in 100+ temps for extended periods or lug my big motor through the Sierra's highest passes, and still run at the track, without worrying that a damn distributor gear (or worse, the cam) is going to let go.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Having read your post, I suppose that's true re the factory mfg cams.

But that's not the case with the solid rollers initially made from billet...they called for the bronze gears (again, being the cheaper and easier to replace element). Even now, by using an iron gear, I would want it to wear out before the flat tappet cam gear does.

Matching hardness or softer distributor gear is ok...not harder.

It is my understanding that this crane "steel" gear is a ?powdered metal gear, with bronze impregnated with the steel, specifically made for billet cam gears, so you don;t have to keep changing the bronze gear. This gear I believe was specifically designed with that in mind, to be compatable with billet cams when in the past only the bronze gear was available.


I'm not sure about a polymer type gear for durability. I'd use the crane.

I had thought that all flat tappet cams were basically cast iron blanks, compatable with cast iron distributor gears, not to be confused with the typical solid roller type..

[Jamo]

Anthony, the poly gear has been around for a few years, longer for Chevy applications. Hasn't exactly lit a fire, so I agree with you.

From your description, it sounds like the Crane gear (with some bronze in the soup), though harder and more durable than the normal bronze gear, is still intended to be sacrificial, and I like the sound of that. That's the way it ought to be.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jamo

From your description, it sounds like the Crane gear (with some bronze in the soup), though harder and more durable than the normal bronze gear, is still intended to be sacrificial, and I like the sound of that. That's the way it ought to be.

If I remember correctly, I got that info from Rob McQuarie, as I believe he spoke directly to the engineers at Crane about that line of gears.

Wasn't Rob an advertiser here years ago?

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Anthony, the poly gear has been around for a few years, longer for Chevy applications. Hasn't exactly lit a fire, so I agree with you.

From your description, it sounds like the Crane gear (with some bronze in the soup), though harder and more durable than the normal bronze gear, is still intended to be sacrificial, and I like the sound of that. That's the way it ought to be.

The new Crane gear is not designed to be sacrificial- it is designed for long term OEM type life spam. Below is from the Crane website that one of those two smart guys posted the link to earlier (emphasis added):


By using modern heat treating and manufacturing processes, Crane Cams has developed a series of steel distributor gears that are compatible with cast and both induction hardened and carburized steel roller lifter cams. Crane Cams now makes it possible to use a steel distributor gear that provides OEM-style life-span, eliminating the need to frequently replace bronze alloy gears.

[Anthony]

One final thing, I would probably run an oil with a lot of zinc/phos anti-wear properties to help prevent excessive distributor gear wear.

[Jamo]

Barry...just saw the edit you added after I responded regarding what OEM mfgs are using, evidently for their hydraulic applications...interesting. That answers that.

Anthony, I don't recall if was an advertiser here before. I agree re the oil...I've always used VR-1 Racing oil per my builder's recommendation for that reason.

Chappy...cool! So (since the question has been begged) how long does an OEM gear last?

[Chaplin]

100k powertrain warranty!


In all seriousness, we'll find out shortly. Nimby just installed one of the new Crane gears on the distributor for my new motor this week. In a few more weeks I'll be able to tell you how it's wearing.

[Jamo]

But you're running a hydraulic roller...according to some, you're a pussie.

[Chaplin]

true, but that's got nothing to do with the hyd roller!

I guess the only thing worse would be running a hyd flat tappet

[Jamo]

Yup...we old POSs just can't be taught new tricks, even when we try out the new ones.

Me thinks you're gonna be happy with what Jorge and his illegals have thrown together for you.