Very high oil pressure

[double ugly]

We finally got the carbon car fired up last night. The sideoiler is WILD. My neighbors will not be happy with me. It makes my old Hi Tech's 428 sound like a popcorn popper. The builder wanted the oil pressure to be up around 100 lbs which kind of amazes some of my knowledgeable friends. I'm afraid the Mocal cooler could split a tube. Any ideas? He added two shims to the high volume pump because he prefers very high oil pressure. When we used the drill to pre-lube the engine it went to 100 lbs and at idle when cold is at or above 100. Granted, the oil temp never got very warm but.....
John

[Anthony]

I think you really need to check the pressure with the oil hot. Options to decrease cold pressure would be to use a synthetic with a lower Xw rating, keeping the same second number weight. Another option would to go to a slightly lower viscosity oil, but talk to your engine builder.

[elric]

What weight oil are you currently using? Unless you're running excessive clearances and the narrow FE con-rods that's probably too much pressure. My SOHC hits 50 psi on the pre-luber and 40lbs at idle hot with 15w40. I'm using the high volume pump with high pressure spring in it; bypass spring in block comes in at about 85 psi with no shims. That's going to be a fun car when finished.

[Bob In Ct]

Let's hope the gears driving that pump are pretty stout.

Bob

[Ron H.]

A buddy of mine runs 120 psi on his race cars and when he built my motor he was figuring on 75-85 psi when hot. I have been running that with 10W-40 for about a year and no apparent problems. Can't tell you the details of the pump, though.

[double ugly]

The pump is a melling high volume and the gears are stout. I'm running 10W40oil. If I can find some 5 weight I'll use it here in the winter. I REALLY don't want to drop the pan. Need to lift engine an inch and fight to get the pan off to remove the shims in the oil pump. The builder swears by the high pressure though and has never had a problem.
John

[mickmate]

I've had oil filters bust open with that kind of pressure. I'd say it's excessive and unnecessary. Oil doesn't work better at higher pressures it needs just enough pressure to seperate moving parts under load, hot or cold. The gears as pointed out and the shaft driving them need to be rugged. I wouldn't goose it cold!

[CHANMADD]

100 psi is IMO way to high.You know I often prefer to believe that a manufacturer like FORD paid very well qualified engineers a lot of money to determine what the best pressures would be to ensure that the bearings get the most efficient flow of oil through them.

[Woodz428]

I would have to agree with it being too much. I think there is more chance of damage with the pressure that high than at a more reasonable level.

[David Kirkham]

I think that is some pretty high pressure. Ask me how I know

David

[sakeeney]

I have a new Roush 451 in my CSX 4000. It benched test at 455 peak HP. The guy who installed the engine was REALLY good (Vernon at Park Place in Seatle). He used to, or still does as a hobby, build and race top fuel dragsters. Anyway, he told me the oil pressure sensor gauge (I'm knowlegeable but not too much) on my car is at the end of the oil cycle and loop. In other words, in my hot rod the oil pressure is being measured after it goes though the pump and engine. At idle it reads 18-23 psi, depending on the temperature, which he said is normal. But at 5,000 RPM, and I'm still breaking this dragon in with only 1,900 miles on her (yes, mine is a dragon, not a snake), it reads 110 psi. Keep in mind that this is at the end of the run. My guess is that if you measured it just after or nearer to the oil pump, it would be much, much higher of a reading. And he insists I use 5W30, always.

This past week I was burning one quart of oil every 100 miles. When I really got on her, she was blowing blue smoke. Even a novice like me knows this is not good. My engine and car builder/finisher guy, Vernon, installed HUGE 3/4 -1" SS aircraft braided lines (frankly, I'm not sure of the exact size). When I lifted the car, there were several spots that showed evidence that oil was misting out, creating a coat of oil on the underside of the chassis. It was so fine, it did not even leak on my garage floor, and it is carpeted (I pulled several hundred squares from an office complex dumpster).

I wrenched down "gootentight," per my tech guy's instructions, all of the oil fittings (using 30-34 MM wrenches), and all of the bolts on the 12 quart oil pan (there were 2 places it was spraying).

Now here is the funny part. Over the past week I have been giving rides in my little dragon, raising money at work for the United Way Chicago chapter where I live and work. I marketed it as a "Power Lunch" and for $50 or $100 you could buy an hour or two with me on Lake Shore Drive, the Mag Mile, a Guiness at a bar called Dublins near Rush Street, etc. etc. It cost me at least $200 per ride with fuel, oil, insurance, beer and depreciation, but what the hell, I'm driving at lunch anyway. So today I had a sweet girl, who loved speed, ready to go wild. So I lit it up, in part to test my handyman's fix last night, and second to give her a thrill of her life. I took her up to 130 for 5 or less seconds, on I55, just before it splits into Lake Shore Drive going either north or south, near Soldier Field. It is a perfect place for this because it is about 9 lanes wide---I'm not kidding. So I had cleared all traffic, and punched it through 2nd, 3rd and 4th. No blue smoke! Cool. Well, apparently I had not noticed the blue wrapper I blew by in 2nd gear. OMG, HE WAS FROTHING AT THE MOUTH PISSED, COULD HARDLY SPEAK, when he walked up to me, looking down, scowling. I knew immediately I was going to jail, that there was nothing to do but be honest and polite. My only hope at the time was that he'd let my lady rider off to take a cab back to the office.

He told me, this really nicely dressed undercover officer in a REALLY polished dark metallic blue wrapper, which struck me odd at the time, it had been years since he had driven so fast in such a short stretch. Again, I lit it up but good, but only briefly. He said he was doing 150 to catch me. I never saw him until he was 6 feet off my bumper and I was going 45. The guy was FROTHING at the mouth, keep in mind. So here is this really nicely dressed, articulate plain clothed police officer, driving a perfectly dressed hot rod blue wrapper, which I have never seen anywhere on the road up until then.

This story gets better, so stay with it. I'm in sales, so to speak, so I read people really well. I figure out that he is testing me: he wants to make sure I am the idiot, arrogant, rich asshole who he has pegged me for. I am not, but that is what he wants to prove out. After 12 "I'm so sorry officer, I am an idiot" kind of nervous blurbs out of my mouth, I tell him two things. I preface each statement by saying: "Officer, you will not believe this....." And both times he snaps back and says: "Oh, you are SO correct but go on......"

#1: "I have NEVER gotten a speeding ticket in my life and I am 50 years old." He laughed.
#2: "I am raising money for the United Way." He laughed again, and said: "Where is your license? Have you thought that I may want to see that?" I said "Yes Sir. But to do so, I need to unbuckle these racing harnesses. Would it be OK that I do that?" He said: "Whatever." or something like that. I'm going to jail, I thought again. So I pulled up on the safety strap, the buckles fly like they do when you pull really hard, like scratch the paint, they fly over the door sill and rear deck shelf, hard. I'm thinking: I hope he does not shoot me: I have a lovely wife and two girls, 9 and 11, counting on me. Dead is no good for them. Jail is inconvenient; dead is bad.

Did I mention I have a stuffed dragon zip strapped to my roll bar??? He must of thought I was........well, a lunatic??????

He then said,and these were his final words: "Please, slow down, be a little safer." I said in shock: "OK, Sir." And he walked over to his hot rod and lit it up, speeding away, leaving me slack-jawed and dumbfounded. No ticket. No ****. I am not making this up. It happened today at about 1:15 CST where I described. I blew by so many cars before I really lit it up with no traffic in front of me, there must be dozens of witnesses. And I had one charitable girl in my car. But PLEASE, do not dig so deep into this story to prove this out, or find it flawed and untruthfull, as it is not. It is the: I swear to God, may my mother be struck dead if I am BS-ing any of this, truth. If my wife finds out she WILL shoot me...in the groin if you get my drift. I told her the whole story, but not the exact details of the (130 MPH) infraction. Being the best wife in the world, she said: "How was the rest of the ride and your day?"

Now here is the punch line: My United Way rider later said: "I didn't see the name on his name badge, but I did see "Commissioner." Well, that explains it all, his dress, his articulate but frothy manner, and no ticket. He wasn't going to give me a ticket. If I was the arrogant asshole he thought I was, he was going to call in the troops and have my ass hauled away. He was a car nut like us. He wanted to see my race car, up close. He wanted a reason to take his blue wrapper up to 150, albeit briefly, since I had done my little dirty deed in less than one half of a mile. He had no tickets to write a citation; he was an executive for either the State or City of Chicago police. I write hoping he will someday read this and smile, saying: "No ****, that excentric guy was telling me the TRUTH, God bless him." My rider and I laughed on and off for the next two hours, while going REALLY slow up and down Lake Shore Drive.

[RACER X #99]

That's an awfull lot of BS for a first time poster. You ain't fooling anybody here.

[RICK LAKE]

double ugly what bottom end is in your motor?? Ford FE bearings and rods or BBC rods and bearings? If you are running BBC rods and bearings you could drop the oil pressure to 80 psi. If you are running FE rods and bearing like me, STAY at the 100 psi. John when cold my motor pressure is 125-130 psi, with 15w40 oil. I preoil the motor before starting everytime. This pervents dry starts. When racing hard the oil pressure is in the 65-70 psi hot. At idle, 25-30 psi. In my 25+ years of cars racing and motor building, I have NEVER SEEN A MOTOR break from TOO MUCH OIL PRESSURE. Is a HPHV pump hard on the disturbutor gear and drive, YES. I ran total of 50+ hours racing at the last 7 Run&Gun and 1/4 mile at E-town. This was with the 452 kit in my shelby block. There was nothing wrong with any of the rod or main bearings. The main bearing where full groove and the rods where the normal 10 under bearings. I wanted more power, this is why I put a 484 kit in my block. Was tired of going to a gun fight with a knife. I limit my rpms to max 6,500, with the 452 6,200. There is no point reving any higher because you are out of the HP power band and just wasting motor. I am still running the same gear,shaft and oil pump in the new motor. There is no wear problem with the hydro cam I had in the motor. I installed a hydro roller cam in the 484. Will have to wait and see if there is a wear problem with the gear. I also hav oil dripping where the 2 gears meet. I am sure that this lube stops the wear problem. I have a polymer carbon gear I will try with the 498 motor. The plus of the gear in NO metal in the motor. Something everyone should think about. $ 100 gear and no metal shaving? Where the down side. Use good Oil filters like Frams. If you look up old info you will see the FE motors with 80-100 psi pressure for racing because of the small rod bearing and the heavy loads of the rods and pistons. This is some of the reason the stroker kits are running BBC rods, More bearing surface in width, lighter wieght, and less bearing speed. I am not a pro motor builder by trade. I only build my own motors. I have done a ton of research on this alone. All the best engine builders from the old cobra racing days to the newer motor builders that sell here. Rick Lake

[double ugly]

Rick, I have a steel crank .040 mains and lemans rods at .030.
John

[Jerry Clayton]

Rick

On the poly carbon gear---it is slick but carbon is one of the hardest substances known to man--

I further beleave that it makes little difference how much pressure you pump, bur how much volume---

The problem ( as stated bu ford in the late fifties) blowing oil filters when cold---

It would be interesting if some of the pump guys--Aviaid, Barnes,etc would post some numbers on power reguired for pumps--I know Barnes has a test station and probably could be as simple as how many amps it takes

The big drag on our race engines was from the magneto--

Jerry

[troll]

Just thought I would add a comment here.The worst thing that could happen is the drive gear will wear out real soon or fail.The engine will die when it breaks but all those little pieces in the oil before that happens wont be good.Change the oil pump.

[RICK LAKE]

Jerry Clayton Jerry not being a pro builder but from my own experiments with different motors, AMC, Pontiac, Hemi 426, SBC, and now Learning about FE motors from both here and the FE forum, The lighter the wieght of the rods and piston assemblies for a FE motor the less oil pressure you can run. I have not seen a bearing that was errioded from high oil pressure, a couple of people said this happens, I am still waiting for some + proof this happens. As far as oil filters blowing apart with cold startups, I am around 6. Most on an AMC motor in my jeep, the front diff hits the oil filter housing and bends the aluminium bore where the pressure release valve is, If the valve is closed and will not open, 150 psi and blown filters, if stuck open on oil pressure to motor. The Fram filters have a high blow rate, just the single filter ones, Fuel motors run them. I have had good luck with baldwins also. I talked to the Maker of the polymer gear and he said there is a special formula for the disturbutor gears that makes them hard enough but will not break over pressure or heat cycles in the motor. He said that there is no wear if a little lube is used between the 2 gears, only needs a drip, not a flow. My 498 motor is going with a drysump system. They now make the oil tank to fit in the R/S front fender. I am not cutting my fender up for the fill cap. I also want to enlarger the tank for another 2+ quarts of oil. I am still going with the 80+ psi for racing. I believe that you still need high pressure for certain parts of the motor like bearings, the oil hydro lifts the rods to stop metal to metal contact of the crank. I also believe that you need alot of oil in the heads to help cool the valve springs in racing conditions. I have .010" grooves in my block (lifter Bores) for the oil to run down on the roller lifters and cam lobes. The crane lifters have a small hole in the bottom of the housing for spray to this location but I wanted more. I am looking at spray bars for the valve covers when I build the next motor. It will be easy with a drysump pump setup. Any time I have seen a gear get chewed up in a motor, the metal pieces find there way into the pump and filter. I would always replace the pump, drive shaft if possible and gear. It just makes good sense. A coupld of oil changes also to help remove any particles you might miss in dropping the pan. I have seen chewed up gears where all the metal stayed in the oil pan. Those are the lucky people. Rick L. Jerry I am not sure about the amp thing?? I only ran a mag once and found out that the motor ran just as good on an old accell super coil and +300 box with an accell distributor. I now run MSD with an HVC coil and the spark will kill you. I have been zapped twice and it took 3 days to get the taste out of my mouth.

[troll]

Those little tiny drive gears on the distibutor arent up for much.Its good to have them break and kill the motor when you loose oil pressure.Its just to much of a strian for such small parts. All you real need is to replace the oil on those bearings at a constant rate.If the pressure drops off at high RPM then you need wider gears in the pump its self for more volume.And glue magnets in the oil pan.

[PatBuckley]

You said it, Cranky.

As for the oil pressure, I have always gone with 10 psi per 1000 rpm.

Excessive pressure costs power and you run the risk of breaking things. It takes a lot of twist to generate all that pressure and in any case it's the lubricating properties of the oil that keeps things going not the pressure of the oil.

As long as you have some pressure you are OK - the Cosworth-Fords I raced indicated zero pressure at low RPM after a race - you needed to keep them revving for the pressure to show on the gauge. Never seemed to hurt them.

[Jerry Clayton]

IOts the amount of oil you pump that costs power, not the pressure---sort a like torque and horse power---

The old 10 # per 1000ppm is a rule of thumb that has been used for years, even by me, it only means that if you have 10/1000 that you have flow which is what counts

Even today, with out 500 mopars we see very little pressure indicate from running very lite oil, but the flow is there---too bad we don't have flow meters instead of pressure guages

The FE engines are just like all other engines--the crank don't know what the valve cover says--

It is not PRESSURE that keeps the rod bearings off the crank pin, it is the shear strength properties of the oil

Non foaming oil has additives that break down the shear strenth of the oil film--don't run them

If you have a foaming problem, your oil system isn't what it needs to be

Restricting the oil to the top end is one of the worst things you can do to an engine

Got work to do

Jerry