Very high oil pressure

[RICK LAKE]

PatBuckley Pat how can you say the cosworth-ford motor is the same as an FE Not even close. About the only thing they have in common is sucking air and fuel, and spinning round. Rpm ranges double to triple of an FE. Assembly wieght of crank,rods and pistons, 1/2 to 1/4 of an FE assembly. The only thing that should break in the FE oiling system is the sheer pin in the distributor gear and shaft. The shaft may twist and break but I only saw this on oem shafts. How many races did your cosworth motor run before a rebuild or tear down? 1 if you are smart. With the price of parts for that motor, 1 race ,1 rebuild. Was is the clearances on the rods and mains for your motor.0035-.004" mains and .0027-.0035? Great for a race motor, this motor would drop dead on the street. I think you know this. If you are running an Aluminium block like a shelby with steel caps for the mains, I am around .002" or less without any problems at this time, rods are also in the .002"-.0022". There is 2 different worlds between racing and street driving with looking for 100K on a street motor. On most motors, Chevys, the 10 per 1000 is ok, IMO this doesn't apply to a small bearing heavy rod FE motor. Rick L.

[Woodz428]

I think Jerry indicates pretty much what I think. They used to use a term "washing the bearings", which was applied to engines with so much pressure that the oil didn't stay long enough within the bearing area to create a film to carry the load. I don't know what clearances were being used, but bearings all bleed off and in order to increase pressure you have to pump the oil through the passages faster. It would seem that this actually prevents a film barier from being created.the They usually suffered from fried bearings.I also agree that it is volume more than pressure that is needed.

[RICK LAKE]

woodz428 I which I had a camera to show the bearings I took out of my motor. The coatings are still on the bearings both rod and mains. The mains in my motor are also FULL groove, not 3/4 groove like the new set I got with my stroker kit. The oil acts as a cushion on the power stroke more than any other stroke. The oil is squeezed out on this stroke the other 3 strokes don't give the same condition. If you looked at a 3/4 bearing and a full groove bearing and see the amount of space that there is NO material, you guys might rethink your theorys. The gap is 1/8" with no material. In the old days this is why crossdrilling was done to give full time oil feed to crank and rod bearings. Your term washing the bearing in my book is either gas or coolant got into the motor and the motor was run. It looks like a milkshake in the motor. Bottom line 95% of the motors are done. Coolant acts like a abrasive in the oil and eats away at the metal. Gas thins oil, the oil and there is no lubercate properties left in the oil and again the same problem on metal rubbing metal. These motors will run when cold with good oil pressure but when the oil mixture is hot at idle, no pressure I did over 100 motor for Caddie in 95-98 with coolant in the motors, the same with 3.1 and 3.4 motors in 99-2005. The intakes leaked into the motors (coolant) and when the low coolant lights came on 85% of the time it was TOO LATE. I have talked to some of the old top FE builders and endurance motor builders, this is an old motor, these guys have alot more info, knowledge and still build FE's for a living. I will stay with old school. Your volume and pressure theory depends on what part of the motor the oil is being used on. Valve springs, yes for alot of oil to help cool the springs and rockers, I don't want alot in the valley of the lifters. I run .080" oil restricters to my rockers arms and both heads are full to the pushrod holes. I also run from 1-2 quarts of extra oil We can save this for another thread. No problem yet with the either when you are pulling a G in road course or autocross. Rick L.

[PatBuckley]

Jesus Rick, you're like a rabid dog! Did I phucking well say that an FE and a Cosworth are the same?

I only mentioned the Cosworth to illustrate that low pressure isn't the bad thing that everyone thinks it is. Cosworth recommended 800 miles between rebuilds - which worked fine. Doesn't have anything to do with being smart.

Bearing clearances on that were about the same as I ran on my aluminum block 482 - .0025 - .0003

[troll]

Ive never seen a cosworth bearing.Im betting the look the same as an FE bearing.Those new F1 engines go a bit more then one race.I wonder does anyone know what kind of oil pressure they carry.I think 100 psi is way to much for anything.

[PatBuckley]

A little smaller but otherwise identical.

[troll]

while you at it how much do the rods weight?

[PatBuckley]

Can't recall. Originally used Cosworth rods then switched to Carillo's. I suppose the weights are listed on their web site.

[RICK LAKE]

PatBuckley You are giving out poor info on this oil pressure thing. You have pictures of your GT-40 with a windsor motor in it. Do you run this car hot with no or say 10 psi oil pressure at idle or 1,000 rpm??? I don't think so. You have a picture of a Kirkham, is an FE motor in it?? What oil pressure are you running hot in this one at idle??? You said that the cosworth gets a rebuild around 800 miles, maybe 2-3 races. I don't think that any FE owner want to rebuild a motor after 1K miles. Your motor (331) has within 1/16" the same width rod bearings as an FE motor, your rod wieght 560-580 grams, FE wieght almost 800 grams with Lemans rods. Let's not forget the piston also being bigger and heavier. Is your motor have full groove main bearing?? most windsor don't because of a better oiling system, the small clevelands need some work for there bearing to live. Cleveland bearings are wider than FE bearing. I run them in my shelby motors. Carillos rods are one of the lightest and strongest rods made. $1,200.00 for an FE motor. Low oil pressure for an FE motor will wipe out a bottom end. PERIOD. Same as dry starting motors. I hate when someone said that it's ok for a condition like this and compares apples to oranges. I see you drive these cars and maybe you can do basic repairs. From your theories, your engines are all built my someone else. The spec for blueprinted FE motors is 30-40 psi at ilde hot and 80 psi at 3000 rpm. This is out of the original FE manual for 65 and the SOHC manual. You have a nice day in the sun. Rick L. Ps do you own or fly airplanes? You think low oil pressure is ok in them too at idle??

[RICK LAKE]

troll the rods for a ford cosworth are 565 grams, that the heaviest they sell. The BBC 6.7 rod is 830 grams I am running a stroker kit with an 810 gram rod. Thats alot of heavy to be throwning around in a motor. This don't include piston wieght either. Rick L.

[PatBuckley]

Rick -

You are starting to be a little tedious. Know what that means? Look it up you dumbass.

I have built most of the engines I have run on the street and on the race track, dumbass.

I am quite comfortable with less than 20 psi at idle on any of them - so long as they are developing decent pressure at speed.

I think you are one of those guys who spends their days memorizing statistics and spewing them so others can be impressed with all "your knowledge". You demonstrate this with you assertions (know what that means, dumbass?) that an FE is OK with the kind of sky high pressures mentioned in this thread.

Now butt off, dumbass, and enjoy your rain.

I hope this helps you with your build.

PS - did you ever get out of grade school? I ask because of your atrocious (know what that means, dumbass?) grammar.

[troll]

Well it still comes down to the same thing here.Too much oill pressure isnt good for the driving parts in a ford engine.Ive spent my life working in Csterpillar engines.They (3406 ) run 80 psi.The driving parts where heavier then from the pumps of 6 ford engines.Even at that they only required 30 psi in the specs.We used to boost the oil pressue up for the brakesavers to 30 psi.We had to stop because the gears would fail.Same with the gear driven fuel pumps.We would raise them to 50 psi.In a short time they would fail.They never went much over 2000 rpm.I rebuilt a 289 in my falcon.Ive driven it on and off for 10 years now.She is a screamer you know 8500 rpms no sweat.Used the old oil pump 5/16 bolts rods,the cam and lifters and heads from a blown engine,I had to rework a pros job on the heads,I got some old 390 heads and put those valve spings in it.. must have cost me $180 Ive have never seen what the oil presure is to this day.There is a plug in the sender hole.I have a few Go Karts, 20,000 rpms and there is no oil presure in them.The spray from a wd40 can would be to much.

[Woodz428]

Rick, If you have great luck with that pressure...good for you. The washing I described has nothing to do with coolant or gas, I am more than familiar with both those circumstances and byproducts. I've been building engines since the 60s, all kinds, and all rpm/size/hp ranges and I won't run that high pressure ever, no matter what you believe. Until I have an engine fail, and I haven't yet, I will build them the way that has worked for me for the last 40 years. You should do the same. Just for the record, I have used full grooved mains since the 60s, they are nothing new.

[troll]

Besides .Ive read where low oil psi is a HP boost.Just like smaller lighter tires,lighter drive shafts lighter wheels. ect. and so on.In F1 they need to finish with no tread and no fuel so they are going faster at the end.All they talk about is lighter fuel load.Machined down wheels is now in.2 or 3 race max on the wheels.Any strain on the system is a drain on HP.Pull the tread off them tires youll go faster.At the end of a race they proably drop the already low oil presure by external means to gain 15 rpms.Never ben there but it makes perfect sence to me.

[computerworks]

Whoa, boys.

This is a very valid tech topic...and we have some tech experts giving valid input...all are good for the discussion.

Leave the personal shots at the door, and we can continue the discussion.
No response required...just carry on.

Otherwise...

thanks
Ron
ClubCobra Moderator

[troll]

I saw some big probuilt engine one time.No big deal like 500 mile races or the like. He had to have a bronze bushing drive gear to save his steel camshaft as per his overpriced engine builder.He changed that gear every event after the first race.pretty good for 200 feet of mud bogs and 4 passes.DNF.

[double ugly]

I bought a pan heater to thin the oil before start-up and we'll see how it goes from there.
http://spideraccessories.stores.yaho...panheater.html
It is a REAL pain to get the pan off in car. Yesterday they got some oil temp indicating and the press was 70 at idle but would go past 100 at 2k rpm. I think I'll consider dropping the pan if at normal oil temp the pressure is still out of sight.
John

[PatBuckley]

I wouldn't go to all that trouble.

Use a multigrade oil and just let it warm up a bit before driving it easy until it is warm. You probably won't have a problem.

What is you intended use of this engine?

[double ugly]

The problem is Pat, that if I have to run this thing for 15-20 minutes with a fan blowing on the radiator it will really annoy my neighbors.
So I figure that if I plug in the oil heater an hour before I start the engine I can eliminate some of the neighbors frustration. I certainly may come to my senses and drop the pan and reduce some of the pressure. I've communicated with Woodz for a long time and respect his opinion A LOT also. John

[Jamo]

DblUgly

I agree with Pat...play with oil weights first. I was getting high pressures too based on 50w oil, and Pat had me drop it to 20/50w for winter and it solved my problem...course, I dropped the bypass to 85 lb as well, so it never goes beyond that even when cold.

Something my builder (Boghosian) does to his race motors (and thankfully mine given how tough it is to remove the pan in most of these basturds) is to run an external oil return line with a pressure valve for the oil pressure, instead of the one inside. Comes off the back of the block and goes down to the Aviad near the dipstick tube. I'm able to access the valve and play with the shims quite easily from below without dropping the pan. If you're going to drop the pan anyway... (Course, putting a fitting in the block's another story. )

I'll post a pic...