Getting Close to Start Up-What else can I Screw Up?

[big-boss]

I appriciate all the good comments, thanks everyone. Good discussion. I really can do with out the personal jabs and stuff like that.
I do understand and do not take for granted the 100's of years of engine building experience this forum taps into- that is the reason for the inquire. I do not have a dyno in my shop and I do all my own work-it is my therapy-my religion! So I do what I can do- I am not beiong a smart azz about anything.
I do have a brand new barrel of 30wt shell motor oil that is dated 1982 that I found in an old foundry I bought a couple of years ago, so I will litteraly be going back to the 80's.
So my recipe for start up as compiled:
1. Crane breakin oil additive.
2. 1982 30wt oil.
3. Aviation gas.
4. Lots of advance on start up-I will turn off the MSD retard.
5. Get it going and run for 20 mins.
6. Reset the valves-do an inspection.
7. Run it for 20 more mins.
8. Reset the valves again-do inspection- If anything changes find out why. IF all is stable- run till she breaks.

Thanks again for the positive input- I feel like Billy Bob Thornton when he launched the rocket out of his backyard.

[RICK LAKE]

Big -Boss Everything looks good for how you are going to break in your motor. The only side note is Aviation gas? I hope you are mixing this with auto gas. If you have a racetrack around you, the 100 or 110 unleaded would be better. There are some issues with running this straight AVI gas. I would have to call a couple of friends but if you have any rubber hoses, I think it eats the inners out and breaks down some seals that are not designed for this. It's like running alcohol in a carb not designed for it. The same problem GM had with the flex fuel motors and the E-85 gas. It was eating the seals on the intake manifolds and had to be replaced. If the seals where not green, they looked like acid ate them up. Stay with hi test 93 and add booster or go to the race track for the 100. You can add a gallon or 2 on a full tank but would n't add any more. There are also lubricate differents between airplane motors and auto motors. Rick L.

[concobra]

Hello Again Big-Boss

I have read your last couple of posts and understand that the soft spring break in method seems like a lot of additional work and may seem like over kill but it really dosen't take that much more time to do. The additional amount of time savings by not soft springing is not out weighed by the host of problems that have a strong chance of occuring if the cam goes flat. I respectfully submit that you should reconsider this position.

But, of course, I respect that it is your build. I wish you the best and hope the engine turns out the way you want it.

Concobra

[RedCSX1]

BB,

Head down or up to Western Speed and Fuel in Fresno and buy a five gallon can of 110 race fuel. Easy, close, and good for the motor. GOOD LUCK with the break in. The picture look great.

[SantaFe66]

Just my 2 bits.........

I was able to score a bunch of really good parts from a local fellow that built a nice 428. He wiped the cam in 16 miles after doing the 1,500 - 2,500 rpm thing for 30 minutes. He didn't take any springs out (they were E'brocks which have rather stiff springs out of the box), he didn't use any EOS or other additive. Not sure what oil he was using but, when he was done, his block was toast. He sold the roller, I bought the heads, roller rockers and numerous other hardly used bits. Good for me, bad for him.

The lesson is........people on this forum have a lot of knowledge, a lot of it learned the hard way. I'm building my motor now and I'll be doing what they say.

If you want a bottle of EOS, I'll sell you one. I won't gouge you either. I have more than I need for my engine and I'm using a hyd. roller cam anyway.

PM me if you want it.

Paul

[lineslinger]

Following up on the removal of inner springs for break-in with solid lifters, once the inner springs are removed how long, (time, miles?) and or what type of RPM range would be recommended before returning the inner springs.
I removed my inner springs for initial start up and ran my FE for around forty minutes with cam lube and EOS added before putting it into storage with the spring pressure relieved from the rocker arms and the inners still out of the engine.
I am using a reasonably mild cam, comp cams 282S.

[Chaplin]

slinger-
You just need to remove the inner springs for the initial break-in of the cam. Once the cam is run for a reasonable period of time (20-40 minutes @ 2000 rpm), I'd put the inner springs back in before driving it and not worry about it any longer.

[RICK LAKE]

Lineslinger Same for old school ideas, Chaplin is 100%. Has for IMO I have had guys run there motors for 1,000 miles before adding the 2nd spring back in. There is the main reason. Easier breakins. I have done this way once with my last motor. The 452 motor I used the other springs on the shelby heads only and limit the RPM till 3,500rpm. This was after the 20 minutes at 2,250rpm breakin. I changed oil and filter after breakin, refilled with a can of EOS oil suppliment, 7 quarts of 15w-40 race oil. I had no plates on the car and went to E-town on weds nights and drove up and down the track shifting gear and going to 3,000 rpm each shift. I was also running a small hydro cam and had no problems. I also run 100 psi HVHP oil pump. Others here don't believe this is needed. Anyway after the 1,000 miles, install the other springs, drive 500 miles change the oil and filter. Cut open the filter and check for any metal in the filter. If OK, you are good for 5,500 rpm. After 3,000 miles drive semi hard. I would still LIMIT the RPM to 6,200 MAX. After all breakin is gone I would still limit the motor to no more than 6,500 rpm. I think that is the max rpm limit on your cam. Way waste motor. Side note, if you don't have an accusump, Add one. Use it as a peroiler and if you autocross or like pulling high G turns. It will save wear and tear on startups where most of the wear is caused. Your motor is 15-20 grand, the accusump is $300.00. This is a no brainer.It may save your motor from major damage, It saved mine. Rick Lake.

[lineslinger]

Chappy and Rick,
Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Rick, I too am running a high oil pressure. I shimmed the relief spring in the oil pump and removed the relief spring in the back of the block. 60 - 70 PSI at idle and 100 PSI over 2000 rpm.

Do you guys think the accusump is needed on a car that will see very limited track time.? Not a cost issue, just curious........

[RICK LAKE]

Lineslinger I have mine on an electric switch. Before I crank my motor to start a turn on the accusump to peroil the motor. I wait 15 seconds, the pressure gauge gets up to 30 psi. I start the motor. Once started a let the accusump refill and turn off. At the race track it is left on when pulling a G in either autocross or road racing. IMO it's cheap insurance for your motor. Most of your engine wear is on startups. Dry starts kills motors over time. This is why GM, FORD, Dodge, and every other car company will NEVER have them installed on any car,Turbo cars have a timer setup for oil to help cool down turbo assembly. They run up to 5 minutes after shut down. If every car had a peroiler, the motors would last 300K without any problems and the car dealers would be out of bussiness. Your car would also last 20 years. The body would rot off long before the motor would give up. I am looking to put a 383 in my tow truck. I am adding an accusump to the truck. This will be my last truck and motor for this truck. Choise is your's, It saved saved my $17,000.00 motor at R&G. It's worth the price IMO. Rick Lake Ps on your hi oil pressure, make sure you check the distributor gear and oil pump drive shaft. Look at the cam gear for knife edgeing also. HVHP RULES

[double ugly]

Instead of an accusump why not just turn the engine over for 5-10 seconds and get an oil pressure reading. (not tracking the car) Pump the pedal and then start the engine. I don't have an electric fuel pump and this procedure seems to work for me. By the way the high oil pressure still scares the heck out of me. I dread shearing the dist. gear. George at Gessford Machine agrees as long as bearing clearances are normal..
John

[lineslinger]

Originally Posted by double ugly

By the way the high oil pressure still scares the heck out of me. I dread shearing the dist. gear.
John

John, I talked to Brad about that same thing again today. He told me to "quit damn worrying, its good for the engine and will be fine." I asked him if that high OP had ever caused a problem in the past....."no."
He does have a clue.

[double ugly]

Maybe I should put tape over the gage or disconnect it.
John

[orich]

So What is cam beaken= just means your lifter will turn when ideling. If you have a bent push rod max is like 0.20th's So roll on a talbe top to check or buy new one's there cheap enough. My#1 use was STP for cam & lifter and Cam bearing with a fresh startups with double valve springs,I startup with out the valve covers but a was a bit of a mess tho but,I make sure all push rods were spinning. Then set the hot valve lash running 5 wt oil back in the good old days. in the 60's, then in late 70's another built hyd lifters v cover off fast ider help 1 or 2 push rods to turn Ok put cover on 30 yrs ago engine 175,000 miles still running but rings getting a little weak on one cyl down is to 90 PSI compression...Aw the good old days
orich

[RICK LAKE]

Double ugly John Unless you have a sideoiler in your car, the oil goes to the camshaft area first and then works it's way to the crank and rod bearings. It takes from 5-10 seconds for oil to get to the last bearings in your motor. If you are cranking your motor for this long , your are wearing out the bottom end until the oil pressure builds up. I feel like abroken record on this. 80% of engine wear is on startup. Some oils have a clinging effect to help stop DRY startups. Your motor cost from 12,000.00 to 20,000.00 dollars. A accusump cost $400.00. You use it as a perluber for the motor. This way you turn on the peroiler for 10 seconds, the motor has build up pressure and start the motor. NO METAL on METAL rubbing. Why do you think that most motors wear out in the bottom end first, In most oiling systems the bottom end is the last to get oil and you have about 120 pounds spinning around on a piece of metal about 3/4" wide. (main bearings) the rods are less maybe 1/2". If I can't convince you of this, at lease don't turn the ignition on when cranking. Don't worry about the high oil pressure when cold. Just let the motor warn up a little before going anywhere. Don't rev the motor. Just let it do the cold start my itself. As for the gauge on the oil, just pretend it's your blood pressure. Rick L. NOW go and get a preluber.

[Ronbo]

I have planned on doing something similar to what Rick is talking about. I'll have to lookup the accusump. I had planned on using one of the differential cooling pumps and a couple check valves (to prevent backflow through either the engine pump or the preoiler pump).

I've seen the pressureized bottles but it seems like a PIA to have to cut the valve off before shutdown. I don't expect to see G forces that high that the pan baffle can't handle either.

The diff cooler pump seems like a good choice since it's built to run very thick gear lube through it. I believe the pump was about $200. Cheap insurance.

Here's the pump: http://64.202.180.37/files/pump.pdf $185

[DoneByDoug]

Rick Lake/Double Ugly

For a pre-oil 1 qt unit, doesn't the oil pressure back down once the accusump equalizes pressure with the engine at startup? How long does that take and is that the "pressure issue" that concerns folks, or is there additional concerns after pre-oil?

I'd really like to use the smaller unit for pre-oil, but the pressure issue concerns me as well. For g force racing issues, it would seem to my humble knowledge that the unit would require a tremendous amount of pressure to accomplish what is required in such a short amount of time.

I'd like to use an accusump for both problems, but my gut says the pre-oil might be the safest route, as the response time (10-15 second before start) seems to render the pressure issue moot.

I'm probably missing something here, so please educate me.

Thanks to all. You folks are far better than TV.

Doug in Louisiana

[RICK LAKE]

Doug I mounted my 3 quart unit under the car on the R/S of the frame. I have a shield there to protect the tank and valve from road damage or stones hitting the tank. It's aluminium and can dent easy. IMO I don't think that a 1 quart system will help that much. You can over fill your motor 1 quart and for racing do the same thing as the accusump. I fill my motor 1 quart over to start. I figure 8 quarts in the pan 1 quart in the lines and cooler, and 3 quarts backup in the accusump. Most the drysump guys are running about the same number of quarts of oil, 10-13. I know that from 2 years ago the 3 quart accusump saved my motor when a broken rocker shaft happened. The lifters from # 7 cyl;inder both popped out of there bores. I was running a timed lap and was not watching the gauge at 120 mph. I went 3/4 of the way around the track on a cool down lap and looked at the gauge with 10-15 psi of pressure. The accusump was empty and the motor was over full. I repaired the motor and fired it up. refilled the accusump and check pressures. There where no changes. I was lucky. Once your motor starts to build pressure from the pump, it starts to put back the oil in the accusump. SLOWLY not a blast thing. You can mount the accusump any where you want, some guys mount themin there cars on the passenger floor or center console. My problem with this is, If the line blew or the accusump had a problem, you could get a 240 degree oil bath and that would hurt. The pressure in my tank is the spec they give in the info plus 10 psi. I have had no problems yet. I run a 15w-40 oil and 1 bottle of EOS and Lucas oil suppliment. # 10 line to the oil cooler line on a Tee setup. My motor races at between 65-80psi. It idles at 35-40 psi I have a HVHP oil pump. If you want to talk more on this send me a private e-mail and number to call you at. I also have spring weights for you if you want to autocross and road race. They will get you into the ball park. Rick L. my number is 732-254-3536 after 8:00 pm est time. Good luck

[DoneByDoug]

Rick, Thanks, I'm about 7 months away from delivery, but I archived your response and will be calling you as I approach that date. Used to live up there. You folks had some winter. Doug

[SKI1462]

Just a quick question/note. Regarding the HVHP pumps, I had a respected IMSA engine builder here in Illinois (Protech Engines in Mokena, Illinois) tell me to watch the HVHP pump on a 400 HP 2.3 turbo. His reason was that there is a pretty good chance of washing the cam bearings. I thought he was a little over-cautious. Well, I didn't listen and used a HVHP oil pump on the 2.3 turbo and on a really healthy 2.3 carbed engine that both saw a good deal of street driving. After a while I noticed that the oil pressure started to drop off from what it had been. I tore the engines down and sure enough the cam bearings were "washed." The bearings were Cleveite (SP?) and the cam was a Ford Motorsport roller cam and the cam towers were well within specifications. Soooo, after that little incident I've been a little hesitant to use HVHP pumps unless the engine is going to see strictly track time only. I understand that 2.3 Fords are nothing like FE big blocks but I'm not sure if the HVHP pump had anything to do with the bearing failures. Now, before I start my first FE build I'd appreciate any engine builders like KC, Berry R, etc. weighing in on this. Finally, I apologize for getting this thread side-tracked.
Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts on this!
Greg