KC Pond 482-580hp. Does that sound right?

[RICK LAKE]

Undy Dave a agree with you on the rpm and stroker limit. We both think alike. The Lemans rods are heavier than the scat rods I got from Barry R. The eagle rods in my 452 motor where lighter. Again staying with the 6,000 rpm limit had no bottom end problems after 8 years of autocross and road racing. With e-bay and swap meets all over the US, it's easy to find Jag rearends, ( center assembly for 2-300.00 dollars. ) Get a couple of different ratios, like 3.31 and 3.07. IMO the 2.88 ratio is weakest gearset and would limit them to 450HP and torque. The others IMO are stronger. With the range of 5 and 6 speed trans now and the T-56 holding 850HP and torque, you can have your cake and eat it too. As far as the high reving 427's they need to make up for the no torque bottom ends. Are they faster at top end, yes but who will holdup longer?? The GT-40 lemans cars had limiter for 6,500 rpm. This is how they survived the 24 hours. It all comes down to the right parts for the right application. This is the nice thing about this forum we learn new things every day on maken our FE motors run better and with more power. Dave there are guys running over 7,500 rpms with a single carb, the carbs are either 950 or 1100 cfms and these are stroker 482 motors that are still pulling like freighttrains. Morris is one. Dave S, is another one but with a olberg setup, this is a different deal. It's OK Dave, we will keep fighting cityhall. Rick L.

[undy]

Yea Rick, I know the lemans rods are bricks. I guess the point I was trying to make there was as piston speed increases with a stroker the importance of a light reciprocating assembly becomes exponentially important to achieve high rpm duties. The Scat H-beams definately weren't designed with this in mind, more for a "budget" hi-performance build market. There are also high-dollar custom light weight pistons designed for hi-winding engines out there too. The LS7 went the hi-winding route, with titaium rods/valves, ultra light Mahl special cast pistons, light needle bearing roller rockers and small retainered bee-hive springs. There never was a factory built 427 S/O that ever spun like the LS7 does.. We've got 40 years of technology to thank for that..

Dave

[RICK LAKE]

Undy GM didn't learn from the last time with titanium parts on motors. They are trying a new process so they hold up better than the last motors that had major failures with titanium exhaust valves and went to stainless steel. GM ate some crate motors on this one. If Del West and some of the other Major valve builders say they still have not totally solved this breaking problem, I seriously doubt that the GM engineers have the problem fixed. Ps I work for GM for over 27 years and thank GM every day for these guys. They keep me maken money for my FORD replica car. Rick L.

[undy]

Hadn't heard of any LS7 valve problems, just them dropping.. when the bee-hive spring fractures as the rocker arm spits out it's needle bearings.. I've talked with a few of the Wixom boyz that build 'em ... and soon to be the new LS9. Gotta love that 5 yr, 100K mile drive train warranty.

...sorry, a little off topic back to our regular sceduled programming folks

Dave

[Barry_R]

My fear of beehives has nothing to do with the function - and everything to do with the potential failure mode. I have had the dubious pleasure of breaking valvesprings in the past - and only the presence of an unbroken inner (or outer) kept my junk together. A beehive is a single spring - if it breaks your skewered...

You'd like the springs on my most recent EMC motor. They are dual springs that are only 1.250 in diameter with beehive sized titanium retainers - LS1 stuff. They look positively silly on the big FE heads, but seem to work OK.

[RICK LAKE]

Barry R Like you and from my old race days in the mid 70's. I have worked on cars with 9,200 rpm motors both dirttrack and 1/4 mile. These are not FE motors. I have seen a number of guys break valve springs. Reason, the head builders can't measure the clearance between the coils on full lift, The coil binds and breaks the spring. Reason The dumb drivers overrevs the motor and bangs the motor off the rev limiter, piston and valve damage. Reason too heavy a valve train for the valve spring to work with, looses control and breaks spring. There was a whole bunch of stuff about the beehives breaking the bottom of the springs. I talked to the 2 senior engineers, both said the installer didn't measure for the correct bind clearance with a cam over the max safety limit. There where no cups for the bottom of the valve springs to sit in the pockets either. The spring where bouncing around in the oversized pocket. Since 95 all gm V6 motor are running these springs. I have repaired 2 motors from broken springs, one had 150,000 miles the other was a kid racing and over reved the motor. The single spring issue I can see. You could always add a small dampener inside the spring if you are that concerned. It still comes down to the right part for the right application. You can always get pistons with valve knockers to push the valve closed if you are that worried. Not sure how much this will effect the combustion chamber and power loss. You are only building motors with a 6,500 rpm limit. Anything more and you are wasteing motor for the EMC event. .120" is a safe coil bind, I have heard guys running as low as .070" and turning 7,000 rpm. These springs are going to break, it's a question of time, rpm and luck. Looking forward to seeing your new valve train setup, any pictures?? Rick L. Ps ran the car the other day, that stroker is something for bottom end torque. Tires don't stand a chance. Might advance the cam to remove a little of the bottom end. I wish I had the DannyBee timing setup on the 482 motor, 10 minute job and done. Later

[Keithc8]

You guys are over loading my brain here with all of this knowledge. I thought the customer just wanted a street engine.
I do not know where this limited rpm talk is coming from on stroker FE engines. I have built 527C.I. FE engines with a 4.375 stroke that we have turned 8000 rpms but it was a race engine.
The problem with any hydraulic set is the weight of the oil used, weight of the valves, retainers and locks, how you set the lash, how radical is the camshaft lobe, spring used, retainer used, lock used and the spring pressures. Just has to be a complete package that is best for the engine build and nothing more.
You can get several camshaft with the same duration at .050 and lift but there will be a lot of differences in them. I can tell you that a camshaft that will work in a LS1-6-7 engine and turns 7000 will turn about 1000rpms less in a stock valve type Fe because of the weight difference in the valve train. Install a 8mm valve with the light ratainers and beehive spring and it will turn higher
These discussions could go on forever on all of this stuff. I would like to do the Engine Masters deal but I just do not have time for it with the business, wife and three children to help with a little. I have tried to get the guys interested at the shop but have not had much luck.
Maybe if I ever get rich like some of you guys and Barry I can take some time and do it. Good luck, Keith

[Excaliber]

It's gonna make a great street motor!

[RICK LAKE]

Keithc8 Keith unlike you that has a machine shop to use any time if you break a motor 98% of us don't. Yes you can spin a 600 cube motor to 8,700 rpm with the right balance setup, aluminium rods, light pistons, and the list goes on. You know all this and do it for a living. IMO and limited knowledge of stroker motors (any kind) I limit the rpms for these motors. The real limit is the camshaft. 500 rpm past the max HP, is all anyone should be turning. You are just wasteing motor. For a stroker if money was not a problem , the crank would go to Falcon machine for lightening, titanium rods, good set of pistons with gas porting for street use. About 6 holes. Solid roller cam with Dodge lifters, rev kit for the valve train. Control of the valve train is the issue. Any weight removed from the system will help in the RPM's and power levels. High rpm causes both valve float and lifter pumpup. There are fast bled lifters on the market, some work some don't. IMO is a combo of oil pressure and oil weight. You can run a hydro lifter valve train and not get float with beehive springs until about 6,400 rpm. If you have very little lash on the plunger, like .015" even if the lifter pumps up the valve still closes and you don't bled off power so fast. Harmonics of the valve springs is the other issue. If you being the BOSS can't guy your guys to help build an EMC motor for the event, GET SOME NEW GUYS!!. You get a check if you win, funnier things have happened at this contest. How many more motors get sold to shops that win this contest or do very well with a certain brand of motor. BES, Jon Kaase, and some of the others are selling motors from this, even Barry. By the why, Barry has a new baby and is not rich yet, and it's a baby girl. We all know what that means, Love you da-da can you say GOLD CARD VISA??? Only kidding Barry. Keith bottom line is we do want motors that make 700 HP and torque can run on high test gas from a pump, can idle all day without any problems, run 9.0's in the 1/4 mile, and whip anything on the street. The edge between endurance motors and race motors is what we are looking for without power adders. We can save this for another thread. Rick L. Ps wait till the cammer motors get running.

[hi-tech cobra]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

It's gonna make a great street motor!

Keith,
Ditto what Excaliber said! I'm excited about the engine!
It is a long way from the 331 that was originally going in it. Thanks for all your time and patience through the process.

This is a very informative thread, thanks for setting me straight. 580 reliable ponies...can't argue with that. Like Keith said, it will be mostly street use so most of the HP will be untapped. But it's nice to know crazy power is just a throttle blip away!!

[Barry_R]

Yeah - this stuff is fun to chat about. No right answers and lots of opinions including mine. I'm just an old Detroit street racer havin' fun....

Keith is dead on with the valvetrain comments. I have a hard time getting some guys to usee 11/32 stems , much less 8mm....

Rick - I have THREE daughters ages 6 and under. All blonds with big blue eyes. When it comes to future finances I am pretty much screwed....

Keith probably drops more money on the way to the bank each night than I make in a month I think you'd have a blast at Engine Masters. You certainly have the skills and resources to make a very good showing against the other "players".... It's cheaper for me to build one engine each year than it would be to race the car. Its been parked for a couple years....

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Keithc8

Maybe if I ever get rich like some of you guys and Barry I can take some time and do it.

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Keith probably drops more money on the way to the bank each night than I make in a month .

In my experience, most folks who are making serious money tend to profess not to (and vice versa).

[misfit41]

I love it when people try to tell someone else what they should be doing ,especially when that persons does what ever the topic of conversation may be for a living,and does it well. Armchair cowboys is my favorite description.
All I can say is Kc built a 496 for me that makes 675 lbs of torque at 5100 , 760 hp at 6500. It is 496 cubic inch , loves screaming at 6800 rpm and gets there VERY fast .
I think hydraulic rollers are great for moderate street engines when the guy intends to do a lot of street miles. When you get to 600 or 700 hp I can't imagine not having the valve covers off at least every few thousand miles ,at that point Adjusting lash is no big deal so I can't see the added expense of hydraulic rollers in a non daily driver. Without the rpm ability an fe is just another big block . Just my humble opinion .
I will also add that I think we all over think these things. If I had it to do again I would build a stock stroke motor with the best crank ,cam and heads possible to turn at least 7500 rpm.
I would like something I can drive to the limits if I wanted .The way my car is now there is no way I will ever see it's full potential.
this has been a fun thread to watch,thanks guys,Tim K

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by misfit41

All I can say is Kc built a 496 for me that makes 675 lbs of torque at 5100 , 760 hp at 6500. It is 496 cubic inch , loves screaming at 6800 rpm and gets there VERY fast .

Have you chassis dyno'd your car/engine, if so, what output did it have?

Have you run your car at the strip? What 1/4 time and speed ?

[misfit41]

Anthony,
I havent done either of those things ,I wouldnt mind doing it some day just to know ,especially the dyno . I really don't care about the 1/4 mile time knowing some kid in a mustang with a tall gear and spray can likely slam me.
I am not by any means saying it is the fastest thing out there,just the fastest thing I have ever been in. I have a few friends who said the same that have had some pretty fast cars.It is amazing how hard it pullls in 3rd and 4th gear .
I still think it would be fun to have a strong 390 I could hold at wot and hammer the gears.
Which is your csx ? .
take care,Tim K

[Keithc8]

I would like to do the Engine Masters thing but it always seems like we are behind on getting work done or at least working so that we are on time I should say. My engine assembler talked about this deal and it would be fun. I always seem to waite to late to get in on it when I do think about it. I do like some of the rule changes because most of the engine that were being built early on would never work very long in the application they were intended. With all of the light parts and high compression with the crazy lift cams. Not very many people run a 250 @ .050 camshaft with .850 lift. I do not even know the rules for this year and if it is to late to get entered. The thing with the Ford deal is that everybody uses about the same set up with the 351C style 3V heads. Maybe they will limit the heads a little like all in-line valve heads or something.
I know on the NHRA Super Stocker and Stocker engines that you are limited by pretty strict rules. I do think that the Cammar stuff will be neat if they ever get anything that will hold water and work. We are doing a 514C.I. Boss 429 style engine with aftermarket heads and intake for the street. The customer wants a hydraulic roller and about 10.5 to 1 compression. This thing is suppose to make about 800HP with this combination. It will be a interesting engine to see if it will make that kind of power on pump gas and a hydraulic roller. Will have neat looking valve covers anyway.
I say it all of the time about this business that there are more people out there that know more about it than I do and that that is probably why they did not get into it for a living. I will be happy to fix anybody up with a complete shop and a lot of inventory so they can hit the ground running. Have about 40 different CNC programs for aluminum heads with several for different makes of blocks. Even have a CNC valve job machine from Newen where you can design any valve job that you want. Can do complete radius valve jobs with any radius you want. Do valve jobs with all of the angles .030 wide with 10 different angles. You can design anything that you have the time to cut and flow test. This machine was 80,000.00 alone but people get up-set if you charge more than the electritian, plumber or cable guy, Hell y accountant charges more an hour than we do and I have about 2 million invested and they have an office with a computer and calculator. Like I said you have to be pretty stupid to get into this business. And to think I have a business degree, I should know better. Good luck, Keith Craft

[Rick Parker]

Just do it for the love Kieth

[Keithc8]

Now that I think of it that has to be why we work 12 hours a day. My wife has a saying and she reminds me of it regularly. You have to be careful about what you wish for, you just might get it. If I can just make it for another ten years I might be able to slow down. Oh I forgot I have three kids to put through college. Well I guess that screws up that plan, make it 20 more years. Thanks, Keith

[undy]

Originally Posted by Keithc8

I would like to do the Engine Masters thing but it always seems like we are behind on getting work done or at least working so that we are on time I should say. My engine assembler talked about this deal and it would be fun. I always seem to waite to late to get in on it when I do think about it. I do like some of the rule changes because most of the engine that were being built early on would never work very long in the application they were intended. With all of the light parts and high compression with the crazy lift cams. Not very many people run a 250 @ .050 camshaft with .850 lift. I do not even know the rules for this year and if it is to late to get entered. The thing with the Ford deal is that everybody uses about the same set up with the 351C style 3V heads. Maybe they will limit the heads a little like all in-line valve heads or something.
I know on the NHRA Super Stocker and Stocker engines that you are limited by pretty strict rules. I do think that the Cammar stuff will be neat if they ever get anything that will hold water and work. We are doing a 514C.I. Boss 429 style engine with aftermarket heads and intake for the street. The customer wants a hydraulic roller and about 10.5 to 1 compression. This thing is suppose to make about 800HP with this combination. It will be a interesting engine to see if it will make that kind of power on pump gas and a hydraulic roller. Will have neat looking valve covers anyway.
I say it all of the time about this business that there are more people out there that know more about it than I do and that that is probably why they did not get into it for a living. I will be happy to fix anybody up with a complete shop and a lot of inventory so they can hit the ground running. Have about 40 different CNC programs for aluminum heads with several for different makes of blocks. Even have a CNC valve job machine from Newen where you can design any valve job that you want. Can do complete radius valve jobs with any radius you want. Do valve jobs with all of the angles .030 wide with 10 different angles. You can design anything that you have the time to cut and flow test. This machine was 80,000.00 alone but people get up-set if you charge more than the electritian, plumber or cable guy, Hell y accountant charges more an hour than we do and I have about 2 million invested and they have an office with a computer and calculator. Like I said you have to be pretty stupid to get into this business. And to think I have a business degree, I should know better. Good luck, Keith Craft

Yea, but we both know when you wheel that 700hp Kirkham out of the garage hitting heavily on all 8, motor cautiously down the driveway and then put that puppy sideways the fist 100 or so yards of asphalt .. it all suddenly becomes worth it.. t'would hate to be you.

12 hours a day??? ....you slacker!

[blykins]

What else would you do Keith if you couldn't do this? If you didn't have the shop to keep you busy, you'd be out in the driveway under some car turning wrenches. Might as well get paid for it. Customers are customers no matter what business you're in. They all think they know more than you.

BTW, tell the kids to get a job and put themselves through college. That's what school loans are for!