427 FE What do you think?????

[Hans-Olof Blom]

I have a similar problem. At the moment I have a Holley 850DP on my 427 co stroked to 482. However, one of my winter project is to switch to 4 Weber 48 IDA. I have Edelbrock heads ported similar to Stage 2 and the C.R. is 11:1

The present cam is a mechanical roller, Crower 301R, with 258/264 @ .050, .663/.675 lift, and 108° lob separation and it is probably too much. But I would like to try it before I order a new cam.

I mailed both Keith Craft and Barry Rabotnick. Keith Craft recommended the same cam as above. Barry R. wrote that he to would like to try my present cam first.

I have been looking at Comp Cams 288R with 248/248 @ .050, .645/.645 lift, and 114° lob separation.

Priobe, what cam is it you want to buy? I cannot find it on Comp Cams site. Is it a custom grind?

Right now I have the transmission out of the car and I have removed the side pipes. So it would be quite easy to lift the motor and change the cam.
But I will probably first try the Webers with the cam I have. If it does not work I will go back to the Holley and buy a new cam and mount it next winter.

[priobe]

Hans-Olof-Blom,

I think this is a off the shelf cam. They call it the Xtreme Cam

I do not have the part # only the specs.

See PM

[blykins]

Yes, it is a big block, but it's not that big...

Cams are either exaggerated or tamed by cylinder volume. 427ci is pretty small these days in terms of big blocks.

[Clois Harlan]

Good luck with you decision! After all it is your build and you should do it your way. Who knows you might hit on something we can all use.

Clois

[priobe]

Clois,

Thank you for that comment.

Its funny because many have said to contact a cam grinder or an engine builder such as Keith Craft. Well I have went to the "experts" with Webers and a cam manufactor and many feel that the suggestion was incorrect.

1 gentleman posted that Keith Craft recommended a cam which is similar but still smaller to what was suggested. But the manufactor of the cam was not disclosed.

The reason for me making these comments is because I also made a phone call to crane asking for a suggested cam profile. There specs are as follows:

658
256/264
LSA 114

A comment was made by Crane that my machinist or engine builder needed to make a groove 20/1000 , 40/1000 wide, 35/1000 deep. for a side oiler motor. Hmmmmm

Also I asked if they can make another recommendation and they said that this was the biggest "cam grind " they were able to produce from that shaft spec.

This leads me to believe that alot of these cam manufactors are limited by the initial cam grind in order to make a final cam grind.

Again if this is common knowledge please excuse me I am learning about cams

I do know that Comp is able to produce a cam from scratch which is why they might have made a bigger cam for my application.

Does this have anything to do with what is recommended by they engine builder / cam grinders

[blykins]

Phil, what are you telling the cam guys for your specs and goals?

[priobe]

I am telling them the following which they ask

1) What camshaft do you currently have : 245/250 660 lift 112 LSA
Also was not happy with performance of motor, the idling characteristics was too smooth and I felt as if the motor needed more torque.

2) what type of carburation : Webers IDA 48

3) tire size : 315/ 35 /17 = 26 1/2

4) street or race = street with occassionly race

5)roller or or flat tappet = Roller

6) weight of car = 2500 - 2600 lbs

7) compression = 10.5:1 - possible 11 : 1

8) final gear ratio = 3.73

9) stck heads or ported and polished = Ported & polished

10) type of rocker arm = dove roller 1.76 ratio with end supports

[blykins]

One note....a larger duration cam will most likely not give you more torque...it may do just the opposite by giving more horsepower and raising both peaks to where the engine will feel much lazier on the low/mid range.

[priobe]

Hmmm,

I hope not but I felt as if the motor did not have bottom end to begin with.

Also did I fail to provide them with any information that is needed?

[Jerry Clayton]

Phil

I've followed all you stuff---- and you have too many factors that aren't compatable

You want a street car ---that should be the primary focus
You want a street car thats fun to drive--almost primary focus

You want the WOW factor at car shows-----this should be down the list somewhat

A FE ford engine will idle decently( to me decently is steady thumpie beat that stays in an rpm range and doesn't search around)

A cam with anywhere from 550 -600 lift will give you all the power that can be put to the ground in a stock bodied/stock suspension 90 inch wb vehicle

If you want more track performance on a car that can be driven to the track/show, work on the brakes/suspension/shocks

Get rid of the webbers---an engine with headers and intake manifolds with out phlemun or 180* tuning isn't streetable--Timed fuel injection is a different story
You probably have one bad carb that is causing all your grief and could probably be isolated with a fifth carb and just start changing them one at a time
Another issue with FE engines is the routing of the plug wires---you CANNOT have 7 & 8 running parallel --must be separated

I'm sorry to see that you aren't having fun, but just back away from the car----look at it from across the shop and think---If I can only change one thing to fix this, what is my best option????

[priobe]

Jerry,

Please excuse me.
I really dont understand your post to well. I think what I am understanding from your post is that I am asking for my cake and eat it too.

That is not the case.

I am simply stating that I would like to have a car with Weber carbs that performs well and is NOT a daily driver.

I do not mind the agressive cam profile at idle , but aparently because the demand of vacuum for the Webers it will not idle agressively. Also, I do not want to say a street driver because it will not be driven everyday.

I have noticed when speaking to manufactors if you use the term street they will give you a tamed cam profile.

I have read post on here about individuals that are asking for a comfortable ride in a Cobra. Well I think that would be having your cake and eating it too

People have asked about fuel economy which I have asked ONLY to have an idea but could really careless.

Plain and simple when I drive my car I expect it to sound & drive like a BB with webers.

Some people might feel that a 427 is not that much of a big block but I am sorry but it is still classified as a BB.

If I were to bore and stroke the same block to achieve "BB" numbers, as one who say, would this make it more of a BB?

[Excaliber]

It's a big block, we can put that to rest, and yes there are even bigger blocks than that, 427 is still a big block. I love the look of Webers and would sure try to stay on track to keep them. I also love the 'lumpy' idle of a 427, apparently it is difficult to have both! I'd go with the webers if forced to make a choice.

As far as advice from the Cam manufacturer, I don't have that much faith in their opinions. I've seen plenty of times they don't get it right, for whatever reason. I'd trust more the advice from those who do REPLICAS and understand REPLICAS. Their handling, their weight, their typical owner, what works and what doesn't. KC and Gessford are two examples I would trust over the manufacturer.

A cam manufacturer is not going to get the detailed feedback from a replica owner like KC or other engine builders WILL get. Therefore, the real world experience would favor a replica builder.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

It's a big block, we can put that to rest...

I don't know about that. I think we could add spice to the old BB v. SB argument by adding in the additional component that an FE that has not been stroked and bored is now no longer considered a BB. Yeah, I kinda like that -- let me just run it up the ol' flagpole....

[blykins]

Will a Weber intake support high revs? Using a 250-260 cam in 427ci will make the peak very high...which to make it work properly will require heads that flow and an intake that will flow as well.

Aren't most of the Weber intakes made with tiny, short runners? When I think 6800-7000 rpm, I'm thinking Tunnel Wedge, Dove Spider, or a Victor FE intake....something with lots of plenum volume, long runners, etc.

I honestly think the cam manufacturers just don't know much about older, nostaligic setups. Do they ask any questions about the intake at all?

[Excaliber]

Thats a great question Brent, seems to me the Webers were for better throttle response UP TO a certain rpm range. If I recall the Cobra history correctly a single four barrel was the favored set up when it came to absolute horse power. Even the GT40 was equipped, at some point, with dual fours in search of more horse power. I'm not clear on what the final carb solution was for the race however.

[blykins]

The manifold style reminds me of an Offenhauser or a regular Performer RPM....not something that would have enough plenum/runner volume to support high revs.

http://www.ford-y-block.com/IMW-FE1.jpg

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by blykins

Will a Weber intake support high revs? Using a 250-260 cam in 427ci will make the peak very high...which to make it work properly will require heads that flow and an intake that will flow as well.

Aren't most of the Weber intakes made with tiny, short runners? When I think 6800-7000 rpm, I'm thinking Tunnel Wedge, Dove Spider, or a Victor FE intake....something with lots of plenum volume, long runners, etc.

With a weber intake, the intake runner length is the length from the valve to the open bell of the velocity stack, not the distance to the intake-carb interface. With a weber intake, the "plenum" would be the atmosphere, not like a plenum with a standard type intake. Actually, for high rpm's, you want shorter runners, not longer runners. What you are tryingg to accomplish is to catch the pressure wave bouncing off the closed intake valve, and then returning the next time the intake valve opens to catch the wave for a "pressure ram boost". The higher the rpm's, the shorter interval between a valve opening and closing, and therefore you need to runner of shorter length to catch the wave, as the pressure wave travels at about the speed of sound. You can calculate the optimum length.

48IDA's are not big enough to make alot of high rpm horsepower for a large ci engine. The rare and expensive weber 58 downdrafts were designed for 289 ci indy engines. There were some intakes made for these carbs for FE 427's with Hi-Riser heads, and some were converted for fuel injection like the one below, on the right. The intake on the left is a Blue Thunder FE intake for weber 48 IDA's

[tmareina]

Sounds awesome!!! I have 11.4 compression in my 428FE with edlebrock heads..has 614 HP and no problems with detonation. I have a msd ignition retarder dial in the cockpit just in case but I run Chevron or Shell 91+ gas with a bottle of octaine boost or, when I can 5 gal. of av or race gas. On the few occasions I have had only the 91+ I haven't had any problems.

Tom

[Jerry Clayton]

Phil

I posted an entry early afternoon but I see it isn't here so I musta done it as the site went down or something

There is a difference between DAILY DRIVER, street driven car and RACE CAR!!!

A Street driven car show be manageable in traffic--it doesn't matter if its driven every day or just occasionally, its manners must be civil to the driver not necessarily to other folks on the road.
A street car car be raced

A race car---is not civil anywhere at any time--it has no manners

Now for your car---Your cam is too big for the street---your carbs are too small for your engine---to drive your car on the street, you need a smaller cam and a bigger carb

To race your car on the track you need a bigger cam, improved brakes and better suspension along with some aero mods

I searched for the threads you have asking about weber carbs and there are more than 20 about various things--I read the answers and came to the conclusion that most of them are not answers to your questions nor or they a fix for your tuning problems.

The webers are impressive looking carbs on an engine but it needs to be only around 300 inches or less to work good. On an engine the size of yours, the individual venturi cannot flow enough air to feed your engine and the reverse flow out the runner on overlap goes back to atmoshere losing a portion of the charge on the way. A fuel injection unit is a different deal because the fuel is pumped into the intake charge instead of drawn by the venturi.

You have fought this issue for over a year and had other engine issues that possibly were a result of it. Please take them off and put a Holley on the car and smile---everyone that sees you driving will smile and wave at you and you will be happy

Jerry

[priobe]

Hi Jerry,

I am sure many will agree with you about the webers. But also, I am sure you have several people that will disagree with you as well.

For instance, there are many people on this site which claim that there motor has inproved by installing webers compared to a single 4 bbl.

Inglese as well as other tuners including the BB chevy people agree that Webers are the way to go.

Granted, Inglese is in the market to sell their product but also has a name to protect.

I have contacted injection weber setup and asked them to compare the weber carb to the injection version and point blank the individual stated the carbs were just as good as the injection. I would not see a difference in power as long as the webers are properly tuned.

The advantages to the injection would be smoother idling, and less maintenace. This is from the injection manufactor.

True I understand the card style is more of a headache but I did not see the justification as to putt5ing out an additional 7K for this setup.

I have contacted Comp one more time to speak to a different person in regards to the cam selection. Amazingly enough they recommended the exact cam. Hmmmm

Crane also recommended a simular cam as to the Comp. but was limited by their intial grind.

Now, if indeed this cam is way to big as most of you suggest, well then I do not see why I could pop the intake off and install dual 4 bbl inconjunction with that cam and have a kick @ss motor.

Or is it that you ( all that disagree) that this cam selection is way too big for the street period regards of the carburation.

Now, if I am able to put a smile on my face with this setup and not achive maxium HP but be happy in the process doing it then I really dont see a problem.

Remember I will be using this for my enjoyment, so I could careless if maxium performance is achived at what RPM. As long as I am happy.

If I am not happy, well then I guess this builder has some explaining to do?