FE oil pan

[shlbsnake]

Well, I took my car to a local auto cross and my motor was dropping oil press a bit on hard corners. I added a quart of oil even though the dipstick said full still no change, I changed to a thicker viscosity still no change. I have all the reciepts so I started to look for the oil pan reciept and found a milodon pan #. I called them and they said that the pan was not very good for that kind of driving, After some research hear I purchased an Armondo oil pan. I installed it last thurs and when I pulled my old oil pan it looks pretty much the same inside and out as the Armondo but the one I just installed has a windage tray.It is NOT the Milodon one I have seen that I have the reciept for. I don't see any name on the pan so here are a couple of pics. I was wondering if some one can help me out on what kind it is I think it may be an Aviad??? I Don't think I needed a pan I just needed more oil or a windage tray. I was only putting 8 qrts of oil in it which I think explains my problem. Armondo told me to put 10 into this one which looks the same.I will be selling this one so if there is any value help out there also thanks,
Tony
The Armondo pan does have two pipes out the right side of the pan that he says is for a breather and the dipstick that this pan does not have.

[Rick Parker]

That looks alot like a marine pan. The angle of the bottom is indicative of the angle that the engine mounts in a personal craft such as a flatt bottom ski boat.

[Excaliber]

No baffles in the pan pictured here. I have an Aviad (almost went with Armondo) it has FOUR doors on hinges that surround the oil pickup. I think the missing hinged doors are the problem with this pan. I don't think the windage tray means squat as far as holding oil pressure in a corner goes? I run 9 qts in mine. Add the oil, start it up to fill the filter and THEN check and mark the dipstick for "Full".

[bret a ewing]

Armondo and Aviaid should be the same since Armondo used to build Aviaid pans.

[shlbsnake]

This pan does have the four hinged trap doors around the pick up you can't see them as they are under that medal plate.The interior looks almost the same as my armondo pan.

[Excaliber]

Well now THAT is troubling, the fact your old pan DOES have the hinged doors. Which means you may well find the same thing with this new pan. The doors HELP to maintain a decent oil pressure in the corners, all though it WILL fall some, but it WON'T sustain high oil pressure in a 'sweeper', it's just not possible. For that you need an Accusump, or a dry sump if your really serious.

If your oil pressure drops but stays around 20-30 or so, your still OK. It's when it drops to 0-5-10, in that range and your STILL deep in the corner, that it could be trouble.

My oil pressure will drop from 70 or so to about 40 in a sweeper, it will generally stay there as well. But if I'm even a quart low, it will drop much farther, much quicker. These pans are somewhat 'shallow' and you have to walk a fine line between to much and to little oil. To much and your into the windage tray, to little and it has an immediate impact. Measure that oil dip stick with the prescribed 10 qts and make sure it's right when your racing. And don't worry if it drop some, it will, how much is the question!

[FFR428]

I have a Billet Specialties pan that looks just like the Aviad/Armondo pans. It came with a windage tray w/ a stud the pickup bolts to for added support. I remember someone (I think on the FFR forum) having a problem with the race 4.6 pans trap doors not opening and closing properly. Some welding slag and assy issues were found upon further inspection. Maybe check to see if the trap doors are getting hung up on something?? I don't remember who was making those pans for them but they were pretty shabby looking too!!

[bret a ewing]

Are you talking about 10 quarts (Armondo/Aviaid) of oil WITH a remote cooler?

[DonC]

You might look into the Canton FE pan. 8 qt capacity with baffles and they make a windage tray for it. http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...d_race/fe.html . Mine seems to keep the oil where it should be during track days.
DonC

[Excaliber]

Hey thats an EXCELLENT point Bret, a guy REALLY needs to do the calculations to get the sump 'right there' with the correct capacity. That may even include large or small oil filter (or not)!

[bret a ewing]

Thanks Ex, the Armondo pan (14 inch) is 9 quarts alone.

[bret a ewing]

Also the Arm. pan comes complete with the baffles, wind. tray, trap doors, etc, pretty complete unit.

[shlbsnake]

I did get the Armondo oil pan and it pretty much looks the same as this one but it did come with a windage tray, and has two spouts out the right side. I filled it with 9 qrts plus filled the o/f's I took an uphill corner along with a downhill corner at about 70 mph and the oil press did not drop. I am not sure if it is due to the windage tray or the fact that I had about 10 qrts in the system like Armondo told me.I am assuming it is due to the windage tray. I am assuming that with only 8 qrts in the previous pan it was the reason for the press drop. THanks for the info. Now is there anyone out there that could tell me if it is a pan from Aviad? or does anyone know who it is from I am going to sell it but I don't want to mislead anyone.It almost sounds like That billet speacialty pan as the pickup did bolt to a main cap.

[Excaliber]

How would a windage tray have anything to do with holding better oil pressure in a corner?

[shlbsnake]

If I am not mistaking a windage tray will keep the oil in the sump/ keep it from spalshing up. it acts as a wall. I thought this was the purpose of the windage tray, to keep the oil down in the pick up area.

[Excaliber]

The primary reason for a windage tray is to keep oil from contacting the rotating crankshaft assembly, or limit that contact, would be more correct. Thus reducing 'oil drag loses' on the crank and increasing horse power as a result. SOME say this reduction in 'splash back' and the loss of 'flinging oil' all over contributes to some loss of lubrication to the upper parts of the engine. Camshaft/lifters come to mind, and we hear plenty about people loosing camshafts these days! Not to mention the bore and pistons (cooling for the piston). Is there a connection here? At any rate, one could conclude that more oil is held within the sump due to a windage tray, thus improving oil pressure. I just have a gut feeling the loss of oil pressure in cornering has more to do with the sump/pump/baffles than it does the windage tray itself, which I suspect plays a minor roll. But I could be wrong.

I don't recall a specific thread or discussion (anywhere) that deals with the question of a windage tray increasing or decreasing oil pressure during cornering. It's always about 'horse power gains' or 'lack of lubrication' issues. Hmmmm...

Also WHAT kind of corner are we talking about? Short left/right like you would encounter when 'cone' racing? Or long sweepers where the G forces are maintained for some length of time? How much G force? The new Vettes went with a dry sump SPECIFICALLY to counteract the high G forces the car can generate during extended cornering times. No matter what kind of baffles/sump/pump/tray you got, the oil will run away from the pickup given enough G force and time.

At what rpm does a windage even offer ANY substantial horse power gains? 5000 rpm and above? Are you turning 5000 rpm in the corner? What kind of horse power gains are we talking about? 10? 15? Enough increased horse power to justify the expense and possible loss of lubrication/cooling? Just a thought.

By the way, according to the Aviad web site they note that the oil pan capacity listed INCLUDES the filter. The 427 Cobra original style oil pan (like the one I have) holds 9 qts, one qt in the filter, 8 in the pan. My guess is that Armondo says 10 because, 1 in the filter, 1 in the cooler, 8 in the pan. How you gonna measure that exactly will be a challenge.

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

The new Vettes went with a dry sump SPECIFICALLY to counteract the high G forces the car can generate during extended cornering times. No matter what kind of baffles/sump/pump/tray you got, the oil will run away from the pickup given enough G force and time.

A little off topic, but the principles apply..

Even the new Z06s are losing engines w/the hard core trackies too, in spite of the dry sump. It seems that at or above 1.3 Gs there's a large oil surge in the dry sump reservoir, enough to uncover the pump suction port. It also seems the new LS9 (ZR1) and the 09 Z06 will have a redesigned and larger dry sump tank that will support any lateral Gs that the car's capable of..

The pan design and spring loaded door baffling is the only way to control oil pump suction in a wet sump system. The windage tray is solely meant to keep the splashing oil from being whipped into a froth, possibly aerating the oil ( loss of oil suction their too) and creating parasitic losses alike. A fast rotating crank actually creates air turbulence (hence "wind"age tray). The windage tray provides a bourndary for the air turbulence. The windage tray is either a screen and/or baffling. It will pass oil quick enough so as not to hinder oil drain-back to the pan, a bad thing too. On a long sweeper, or short one for that matter, if the oil starts to climb the pan's side-wall(s) the windage tray will do absolutely nothing to stop it, as it is intended to pass oil.

Dave

[bret a ewing]

Yep, what undy said.

Talked to Armondo yesterday, and I quote " the 14" 427 cobra pan holds 10 Quarts".

[Scott M Jackson]

I haven't looked in awhile but Armondo used to have really good prices on his quality products. Any observations?

Scott

[Jerry Clayton]

You have the wrong pan/pickup for the application--In your engine the pickup should be at the front f the pan---it looks like you have a marine pan that is for an engine mounted at a severe nose up attitude

A marine pan also doesn't have / need the trap doors set up the same as a car as they can't start/stop as a car does and they lean into a corner so the oil stays more level in the bottom of the pan.