428SCJ coolant operating temp ?

[Mark Deluca]

I am concerned about the operating temp of my 428. I have a 4 core copper radiator with a electric puller fan (2300cfm). Temp will go up to 210 deg on a hot day city driving. I have changed to a 160 deg superstat thinking that would help. It will hold at 160 at 60mph on cool evening. front inlet is completely closed off air only comes in through radiator. 1st what is normal operation temp for a 428 in original '68' mustang and does this seem normal? if not any suggestions? Thanks for any help.

[ERA Chas]

"Normal" depends on a lot of variables like compression, cam overlap and displacement among others.
Do not be afraid of temps between 160 and 225-if you have a 50-50 mix. !60 is actually pretty low for MI in the fall or winter. 180 is a good compromise T'stat. You want to see the oil get to 200 at least and the higher T'stat helps that too.

[PANAVIA]

I agree on 180 t'stat and 50/50 mix of AF and H20.

---with a product called water wetter which helps heat exchange properties of coolant.

the other thing is to make sure your coolant system can hold 15PSI of pressure and has a 14PSI rad cap and is otherwise air tight.

coolant under pressure has a higher boiling point than open air/non sealed.

most traffic overheating can be traced to bad ignition timing and lack of proper vac advance.

if you remember the street 428s they had a vacuum valve on top of the coolant thermo neck that changed from 'ported (carb) vacuum to manifold vacuum being feed to the distributor at higher coolant temps. this would have the effect of increasing advance at idle/idle and not waiting until idle/part throttle.

--Steve

[Mark Deluca]

Thank you all for responding. Coolant is a 50/50 mix and I am using a 14psi cap. System seems to be tight Resivour will fill and take back fluid appropriately. I am using a Mallory high-fire ignition with a MSD distributor set with 2 blue springs and red advance cam stop for advance of approx 28 degrees.

[RICK LAKE]

Mark Deluca Mark there are a couple of tricks you can use if stuck in traffic. First Crack the hood about 1-2" inches. This will help remove the hot air under the hood. Run a 180 degree thermostat. If you have aPEPboys or Autozone around. Go there and look at thermostats for the old dodge 383-440 motors. If you compare these thermo's to the FE ones you will see a big differents with the outlet size. It's about 1/4" bigger. You will need to trim about 2mm off the outside edge all the way around. This will increase your coolant flow about 15-20%. Who water pump are you running? Some pumps don't have a plate welded to the impellor in the pump. They sell a kit for $12.00 that you rivet one on. This helps move more water through the motor and radiator. Who's pulleys are you running on the car? If they are underdrive ones like from March, they will make your car run hot. Top and bottom pulleys need to be the same size or the water pump one a little bigger than the crank. We are talking 1/4" at max. Kirkham sell a set of custom pulleys that have the right ratio for FE motor and look sweet. 50/50 mix is good. Add a bottle of WATERWETTER to the system. Switching from a 14-17 psi rad cap will increase the boiling point for the coolant, and also causing a rad hose to blow off or out. I race with a 12 psi. If the cooling system is setup right, you should need any more pressure than this. The MAIN problem is geeting the hot air from under the hood. If you have side ducts in your fenders that are open, get 2, 4" fans from Boatingworld stores and install them to help remove the hot air. They are waterproof. Bildge fans about $27.00 each. You will need a switch and 30 amp relay for this. If stuck in traffic, you can just turn on the fans, or open the hood, either way the hot air has some place to go. Rick L.

[Mark Deluca]

Hi Rick:
Thanks for info. I am running a stock cast iron water pump. Do you think I should go to an aluminum one? I will look into the larger stat. Do you think that I should go to a 180 degree stat instead of the 160?

Mark

[ERA Chas]

Yes, a 180 stat and ditch the OE pump. Get E'brock's aluminum pump and save 9 pounds with better flow velocity.
I did.

[RICK LAKE]

Mark Deluca The Edelbrock is a high flow water pump. You may have one if the pump is for a car with AC. If not who knows what you got. Temp for the motor. 160 is too cool and causes the thermostat to be open alot more than you want. You need the motor to also heat up the engine oil for it to work at it's best operating temp. A 180 thermo will let a little more heat into the motor and also works the other way by letting the coolant stay in the radiator longer to cool down more. The ture test would be a hot day in traffic and see what happens. Racing my motor goes to about 185 and the thermostat opens and the temp drops 20 degrees in a hurry, about 10-15 seconds on the gauge. After a 20-30 minutes of racing, the temp is right around 185-190 max. It depends on how hard I am driving the car and if I am in hi rpms all the time instead of shifting to a higher gear. I would start with the water pump first and see what change there is. Put he old stat back in too. Rick L. Ps every motor is different, and they each have their own happy spots, like temp, A/F ratio, Carb, Airtemp, etc. Living breathing thing.

[undy]

Rick, I think you'll find the Ebok pump flows a little less than OEM, at least I was told that by several engine builders.. It all ties into reducing parasitic draw, which Ebok tries to do.

Dave

[RICK LAKE]

Undy Dave I pulled apart a stock water pump and the back cover on my Edelbrock. The Stock ford one has the same number of fins on the impellor but there was no plate to help move the flow along. This pump could have been a water pump without AC. The Bearing was bigger on the EDELbrock. I did clean up the casting on the ELEDbrock pump. Alot has to do with the CORRECT pulleys on the waterpump and crank shaft. I went with the march setup and that motor overheated everytime. I got a custom pulley from ASP with the correct size as stock ones. I have not had an over heating problem since. I am also running a larger thermostat than the FE one that is called for. Everybody gets different info again Rick L

[bulletbrown]

Mark, I have a Shell Valley with a FE and I had the same problem with the cooling , call the radiator manufacture you have with the model number ,you maybe in the same boat I was in, THE RADIATOR is to small and will never handle an FE and the the electric fan that came with the car won't cut it . Remember they are what you call { the low bidder } and according to them the radiator I had was to small . I replaced the radiator with a larger unit and replaced the fan with a 2002 Viper fan .
The radiator company engineer said he has seen and hear of Kit car manufactures using terms like " good to 450 HP " which he said is silly . Its more inline with big block or small block than HP . Best of luck

[SantaFe66]

I had the same problem with my engine (428 as well). Did pretty much everything Rick recommends, Edelbrock pump, 1:1 pulleys (got mine from Kirkham, gorgeous billet), 180 thermostat, 50/50 mix. But the big improvement was a radiator shroud. I have twin 11" fans and had an HVAC shop make the shroud for me, cost was $120 and well worth it. No overheating now.

As it turns out, I have a slightly used Edelbrock water pump I want to sell. It came off a 428 a fellow here built and it ate the cam in 16 miles. He learned the lesson of proper flat tappet cam break-in. That's all the miles on the pump. I'll sell it for $120, plus shipping. Part number is 8805 and it sells for $190 new at Summit. Email me for pictures if you are interested.

santafe66@excite.com

[Tom Kirkham]

Something else to check is the ignition timing of the engine. If the engine is running with retarded timing it will run hot, as well as swilling fuel... Most Cobras are not running vacuum advance... The factory MSD advance curve is very, very slow.

[Tom Kirkham]

Mark,

If your water pump has the cast impeller you have a very good water pump. If the impeller is stamped sheet metal it is not so good. The factory aluminum water pumps used the cast impeller.

From what I have seen Water Wetter is not a miracle cure. Frankly, I could never tell much of a difference.

[RICK LAKE]

Tom Kirkham IMO the March pulleys are not good for the FE motors. They have the wrong ratios for the crank to water pump. I used them and had about 20 overheating problem with this setup. I also tryed 2 different water pumps and ended up with the EDELBROCK one after removing the inspection cover and matching this up to an AC, FE motor car. I even swapped my ERA radiator from copper to aluminium Griffin one. The pulley ratio was the main overheating problem. The guys that are running your pulleys have not had the overheating problems others have had from either street driving or racing. Do you have a picture and the sizes of you pulleys for here. They are custom and really nice to look at. Rick L.

[undy]

...agree w/Rick. The March pullies have one thing in mind, reducing parasitic draw. They accomplish this by under-driving the water pump/alternator w/a larger diameter water pump pulley and/or a smaller crank pulley. I had the March pullies on mine early on experienced overheating probs. I ended up switching to a Epay'd sourced larger diameter OEM crank pulley bringing me to a 1 to 1 ratio. That with inlet and outlet shrouding brought me back where overheating now is a thing of the past, totally.

Dave

[Mark Deluca]

Thanks for the info Rick. I went to a marine store and bought a 3" attwood fan. Instructions state not to exceed 130 degrees. The mounting area for these that would force air out in the box area are above the headers. If you tried this did you have any problem with headers and their head melting the plastic fans?. I was wondering if I used and insulation wrap on the headers if that might help. I am also currently having a custom alumumin radiator made. I also found out the electric fan is only rated at 1500 cfm. Thanks Rick.

[Mark Deluca]

Thanks eveyone. Rick I believed I sent you a replay but if you did not get it I will repeat it. I currently am having an alumium raidator made. according to the shop owner the size should handle up to 650hp. I did find out that the electric fan is only rated at 1700cfm. again shop owner states that should be enough to handle cooling FE. He did talk about cooling the engine compartment. Rick I stopped at a marine store bought a 3" attwood bilge pump blower. My concern is to vent it out the side lovers it would need to mounted close to them. This would put the plastic blower above the headers. It you did this Rick did you have a problem with header heat melting or worping the fan? Do you think that wrapping the headers would help? Thanks again all.
Mark

[RICK LAKE]

Mark Deluca Mark Here is what I have done to control heat under the hood. My first hood was the stock one with a set of KR-500 louvers bonded into it. This gave the hot air somewhere to go. They helped. My whole engine compartment is insolated. I have my header tubes in these socks that have small clamps on the bottom to keep the heat in. ERA has 2 shields built between the foot boxes and the inner fenders. I have added the sticky reflection tape that they use for there foot box protections. I also have the screens and opening in the inner fenders for a little more air flow. I am running a Paxton hood on the car now and have alot more air getting forced through the engine compartment. I have the 1 4" fans mounted on each of the shields under the hood to pull out the air through the louvers. They flow 280cfm. I have them doubled rapped with the reflection tape for the heat. I have not been to the track to test them. I have also changed the front openings in the nose of the car for blowing more air on the front brakes. I am going to add a duct to the top of the brake ducts for fresh air to go back to the foot boxes. I have taken the era insolation and doubled it where ever I could install it. The down side is the trans and rearend are getting too hot. Have to look at cooling down this problem. I am going to try Amsoil for the trans. If this doesn't work I will be adding a trans cooler along the rail of the car and weldon pump. The same is possible for the rearend. The other idea is to add more blowers to the rear brakes and rearend. Anything to move the dead air from this area. Don C had the neat idea of a snorkel to the rear brakes on his ERA. Work in process, It never ends. Rick L.

[SantaFe66]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Mark Deluca Mark there are a couple of tricks you can use if stuck in traffic. First Crack the hood about 1-2" inches. This will help remove the hot air under the hood. Run a 180 degree thermostat. If you have aPEPboys or Autozone around. Go there and look at thermostats for the old dodge 383-440 motors. If you compare these thermo's to the FE ones you will see a big differents with the outlet size. It's about 1/4" bigger. You will need to trim about 2mm off the outside edge all the way around. This will increase your coolant flow about 15-20%. Who water pump are you running? Some pumps don't have a plate welded to the impellor in the pump. They sell a kit for $12.00 that you rivet one on. This helps move more water through the motor and radiator. Who's pulleys are you running on the car? If they are underdrive ones like from March, they will make your car run hot. Top and bottom pulleys need to be the same size or the water pump one a little bigger than the crank. We are talking 1/4" at max. Kirkham sell a set of custom pulleys that have the right ratio for FE motor and look sweet. 50/50 mix is good. Add a bottle of WATERWETTER to the system. Switching from a 14-17 psi rad cap will increase the boiling point for the coolant, and also causing a rad hose to blow off or out. I race with a 12 psi. If the cooling system is setup right, you should need any more pressure than this. The MAIN problem is geeting the hot air from under the hood. If you have side ducts in your fenders that are open, get 2, 4" fans from Boatingworld stores and install them to help remove the hot air. They are waterproof. Bildge fans about $27.00 each. You will need a switch and 30 amp relay for this. If stuck in traffic, you can just turn on the fans, or open the hood, either way the hot air has some place to go. Rick L.

Rick, I tried to get one of the 383/440 Dodge thermostats at my local Carquest store and the outlet was the exact same size as my Ford FE thermostat. The outside was larger, of course. Where do I find the Dodge stat with larger inlet/outlet? Dealer? Paul

Please reply to santafe66@excite.com Thanks.