Various 427 Questions, New Member

[Keithc8]

Let me tell you about a little project one of my customer had. He wanted the original 427 steel crankshaft and LeMans rods. The crankshaft was checked liked the one you speak of and the rods were crack checked and new bolts installed. Well on about the 7 pull on the dyno one of the 40 year old rods decided to break right into and it destroyed his crank and block aloong with a lot of other stuff. I hated to tell him that I told him so but I got to deliver the bad news which I had warned him about.
Some of these old parts have been around for 40 years and abused when they were used. This engine I speak of was a pump gas 525HP enginje that broke at about 5000 rpms. We had not even turned it up yet. I guess what I am trying to say, new parts are a lot better than any nused parts that you know nothing about. I do not like the Ford rod journal and I know it will work but why not put the better designed stuff in the engine to start with for performance and durability. I would not be building many FE engines if it were not for the new stuff because the old **** always gave me problems. I know that your time is worth money because mine sure is. I do not want to do this stuff over because I really loose then. You need to look at resale as well on the engine for the car and how it will affect the car.
I can sell you a stroker kit for about what you will spend on that old stuff anyway. New Eagle or Scat cast steel crankshaft that I have used to 700HP and yet to break one, Scat I-beam rods, Diamond pistons, Plasma Moly rings and bearings for 1595.00. You will spend this much on the stuff you have to get. Balancing to zero will run about 300.00. I can help you with every item that you might need. I can even build you a nice 468 or 482 Genesis sideoiler with Edelbrock heads and intake with carburetion of the dyno for about 15,000.00 that will make at least 525HP and 550 ft/lbs of torque. You might save a little going the other way but I am passing along a lot of the savings I get along to my customers. Give me a call if we can help. I also have some original parts like heads, intake, cranks, rods and such that I use on restoration engines. Good luck, Keith Craft

[elmariachi]

Hi Keith,

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I have visited your website and read a number of your posts here and there's no doubt you know what you are doing. All your points are very valid, I am just not ready to send $15k into the Great State of Arkansas just yet. I have a local builder who will help me either way, once I make up my mind. I may only get to do this once and I want to be as hands-on as I can be. I will call you in a few days to discuss the block options and to see what else you might have that could help me if I go with the vintage stuff I am looking at. Thanks.

[Excaliber]

Well I guess that IS the main concern about 40 year old rods, what do you know of their history? I stayed with my Le Mans rods because I had run them previously in my original motor and had turned it to 7000. In that respect I was pretty confident of their ability. I had them worked over, during my build, checked out, etc. My new rpm is around 6200-6400 max and so far so good! I think I spent about $4,000 on parts/machine work for my build. The rotating balance was exactly $300, by the way, (Keith nailed it)! There was no way I could have gone $15K at the time. Sometimes us 'po folk' just have to risk it...

I AM surprised a Le Mans rod, having been checked out, would fail at a measley 5000 rpm, clearly THAT rod was defective in some way.

[Keithc8]

I agree about the LeMans rod breaking being pretty unussual but when you have to stand behind these things you try to use the best you can get and stay within a certain budget.
Let me know if I can help you with any of your parts in any way. Like I said I have some original steel cranks and LeMans rods. I can also help you get a decent price on some pistons and rings. If you are on a buget you will spend a lot more on the Blue Thunder stuff and you do not have to do that for what you want to do. Make sure the machine shop knows what they are doing with the original 427 block and what to check for. Make sure they do some work on the oiling system and get a decent set of rockers because this is a weak point on these engines as well. I like the Ersons on street and mild race applications and they are hard to beat for the price. I can machine everything for you and you build it if you would like. Hope we can help. Thanks, Keith Craft

[RICK LAKE]

elmariachi Jim, you are in cobra heaven in the Texas area. Not 100% sure about what you want to build, but the suspension for the street and the track are to different things. Street springs are in the 300-350 inch pounds where as the track setup are in the 450-600 range, this doesn't include shocks and tires. A Cobra is a whole different animal than anything you have driven before. Not to insult your machinist but if he have not built a bunch or FE motors, I wouldn't let him make mine the first. They are not the same as a GM BBC or SBC. KCR, Gessford, Kuntz, Barry R. and Jay B. all have many years of FE motor building. About 275 years total, give to take 5. Build a stroker in the 484 - 527 range, sell the crossdrilled crank and rods to someone for a restored car or hang them on the wall for trophies. Put a set of 307-308 gears in tha car, a richmond superstreet 5 spd with 2.87 first gear, and what ever motor you want. A hydro roller lifter motor, IMO is the way to go if setup right. Add an accusump to the car also if you go racing for both a preoiler and pressure controller on high G-turns. Build a 600ft pound of torque motor. It will go just as fast and be more streetable. What kind of fuel system are we looking at?? Carb, Webers, Propane, FI?? Diesel is coming down the road. Rick L. ps you have private e-mail.

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Hello,

I am new here, working on building a 427SO and looking at various kits from which to build a MKIII this winter. I am in Houston and though this is my first build, I have quite a bit of experience with high-performance offshore boats, 4-wheel drives and older muscle cars. But never a big honkin' Ford FE. I have located a 1969 SO block though I am still going back and forth between it and a Genesis. My plan is to build it up at 427ci, single 4-barrel, medium riser, ~500hp. So a few questions:

1. I have located a nice C5AE forged steel crank, cross-drilled, re-ground 10 under and perfect after magnafluxing and balancing. Would this be preferred to say the Scat 9000 $700 crank?

2. How are the Blue Thunder head and intake products? Are there better choices for the $$?

3. I have read that Le Mans rods are too big and heavy versus the newer stuff, but I have a nice set that are ready to go. I don't have an endless budget, but want to spend wisely in the most critical areas. Will they get it done or should I go with a newer H-beam?

Thanks in advance for any comments or feedback.

Jim

Hi Jim,

The stuff that you have are certain good components. It may be difficult to make 500 hp without giving up a good bit of torque on the low end. You want to spend some $$, I'd sugget the following:

1) First, get a good set of aluminum cylinder heads and have them CNC ported. Keith Craft offers some nice stuff (he's on this forum) based upon Edelbrock castings and his custom CNC porting (recommend Stage II for street use). Suggest you get a CAM that matches his setup from Keith as well.

2) The next stage would be to upgrade the rods to a good set of H-beam parts. This would be especially important if you intend to buzz the motor to high RPM to make HP for racing.

3) If you care going to consider changing the crank, I'd spend the $$ on an aluminum block from Pond or Shelby and then build a stroker. This will reduce weight in the front which will help handling. I'm currently running this setup stroked to 482ci. You would have no trouble exceeding 500 hp (probably be closer to 600 hp) with a setup like this. Only problem is the cost.

You can check out my gallery for some pics of the 482 FE.

- Fred

[patrickt]

elmariachi -- The surest way to disappoint yourself, and lose interest in your Cobra (which you will then put up for sale, at a considerable loss), is to over-build your engine for the true use that your Cobra will see. Getting 500+ HP out of an FE is a piece of cake. Building one that has manners is a different story. Absent a compelling reason to go that high, I might urge you to reconsider. Or, you could always pick up one of the 500+ HP Cobras with less than 2000 miles that come up on Cobra Country with reasonable regularity....

[601HP]

I just bought a set of the Erson roller rockers from Keith Craft. I'm really pleased with them. They look like they'll be very durable. They are probably the best money I've spent on rockers.

Years ago I started with the OEM stamped steel stuff, then changed to the Comp Cams pieces, and then the stainless steel Shelby rockers. I had a recent valve train issue and sustained some damage to the Shelby rockers. I spoke with Keith Craft and he recommended the Ersons. His pricing for them just several weeks ago came in far less than what I paid years ago for two of the competitors' pieces I mentioned!

David

[olddog]

$1500 for a complete rotating assembley already ballanced (I hope I understood that correctly) is a bargan. I would sell the stuff you have and buy what Keith said.

Although I agree with what Excaliber said about the old parts, you would spend too much $$$ getting them X-rayed to be certain, and windowing a side oiler block because you risked it would sure ruin your day. Not to mention what that would do to the budget.

The new rotating assembly minus selling the old stuff seems like money saved to me.

[Excaliber]

patrickt, words of wisdom there!

[Anthony]

My advice, get a new block, either a genesis iron side oiler, or pond/shelby aluminum block. One thing to remember is that if you are going to run solid lifters, an iron block will start easier when cold, as compared with an aluminum block, in which the lash will be very tight when cold, and the engine harder to start. However, an alumunum block is easier to repair if damaged.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I had a killer 427 side oiler, over 600 horse, with a solid roller stick that didn't 'come on the cam' until 3000 rpm or so. Which was really a drag when I found myself stuck in traffic with a high rear end ratio and had to drop a gear to keep the rpm up and the motor happy! I rebuilt with a milder cam, smaller carbs, gave up about a 150 horse and didn't even miss it! MPG doubled, streetability was vastly improved and the lower compression allows for 'pump gas' and it's STILL dang near as fast as it was before! 11.90 with 600 plus horse and open headers vs 11.99 with 500 horse and running the SIDE PIPES!

that's because your 600 hp engine wasn't really making 600 hp. If it was, you should have been running mid 10's at 130 mph. If you're just as fast with your new engine as your old engine, then they are making about the same average hp.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

patrickt, words of wisdom there!

Yes, if everyone would just listen to me the world would be a better place.

[RICK LAKE]

patrickt OK Pat when are you going to run?? You got my vote. The 2 running have no ideas about how to get USA back on her feet. You will have a BIG PROBLEM, How are you going to make the cobra bullet proof and add running boards to the sides with side pipes. The secret service will need track shoes to keep up with you. Rick L.

[Excaliber]

My old engine dynoed at 667 horse, open headers, BIG twin carbs, radical cam, 12.5 to 1 compression. Never dynoed the new one, I estimate I gave up about 150 horse power, maybe more. Now based on your theory/ET calculations that horse power ALWAYS equals a known ET and Trap speed I guess 800 horse would put me in the 9's? Unless you were STILL running tires that won't hook up and gearing where you shift into fourth AT the finish line or stay in third and 'run it out the back door'. What ever horse power you got if you can't hook it up, ET calculations are worthless.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

My old engine dynoed at 667 horse, open headers, BIG twin carbs, radical cam, 12.5 to 1 compression. Never dynoed the new one, I estimate I gave up about 150 horse power, maybe more. Now based on your theory/ET calculations that horse power ALWAYS equals a known ET and Trap speed I guess 800 horse would put me in the 9's? Unless you were STILL running tires that won't hook up and gearing where you shift into fourth AT the finish line or stay in third and 'run it out the back door'. What ever horse power you got if you can't hook it up, ET calculations are worthless.

True these formula assume good traction and propper gearing. Also true that with street tires and your origonal engine set up there was no way to hook it to the ground in the first few gears, as likely with the set up you have now. However at some point in the 1/4 mile you could likely hook all that power to the ground. From that point on the higher hp engine should have accellerated more so than the lesser hp engine. I didn't re-read the times you posted, but they were very close. I think the point is that the actual Hp to the wheels may be a lot closer than you assume. A 150 hp loss should have made a bigger change, even considering that the first few hundred feet is just burning up the tires.

From the time your first engine was dynoed and then stuck into a car and diddled and treaked, it may have had 50 hp less when you ran it down the track. Your engine building skills may exceed your modest expectations and it may have 50 hp more than you think. Now the differance is only 50 hp between the two. Factor in a 20% loss to the wheels and they are within 40 hp to the wheels.

[Excaliber]

11.90 vs 11.99, thats just under a 1/10th of a second. I'm not a drag racer, I only made a few passes on each motor just to get an idea what it could do (without risk of breaking anything ). I forget the trap speed right now but recall that it was several mph faster with the BIG motor.

Question might be:
How many more horse power, generally speaking, would it take to gain a 1/10th in the 1/4? A lot of the guys at the track were trying to shave a 1/100th here and there and happy to get it.

I just built it like George at "Gessford Machine" told me to. A windage tray was added and the custom pistons for 'quench' were the main new additions. George spec'd the flat tappet cam. I was still running the big twin 660 center squirters on the new motor as well, which have now been replaced with smaller more street friendly vacuum secondary Holleys.

[undy]

IMHO, given an experienced 1/4 miler, ET Streets/slicks/drag radials on each car and assuming the rest of the car is up to the task at hand the results would have been dramatically different. Given a good hook and the proper gearing very low 10s are possible, assuming 650 hp @ around 2600 lbs.

This is just me... but ... if I'm going to run a 650hp monster on the street or otherwise, the rest of my ride is going to be up to the task of putting all that horse power to good use

BTW.. the M/T ET Street Drag Radials work right well in doing so.

Dave

[Barry_R]

I'm just gonna make sure I beat this item into the ground....

Those 40 year old rods are a grenade waiting to go off.

Metal fatigue is real, and those rods were the Achille's heel of the FE back in the day. They have not gotten any better. I can't count the number of FEs I have seen with windows in the pan rail from rods letting go.

[bulletbrown]

Jim, I agree with FKEMMERER number 1# I just built a 428 for my COBRA an up grade from my 390 FE . I went back and forth on using the original rods ect. In the end I listen to my engine builder with years of drag race experience, Jerry Clayton, and he collaborated with Kieth Craft .
I have Cyl. heads supplied by Kieth { stage 2 } and Erson Roller Rockers and aftermarket pistons and rods . This aloud me to have a reasonable cam and still make good HP and great drivability.
In the end it is real costly to do it over and I learned that on other projects on my Cobra.

[elmariachi]

Like I told Rick Lake last evening via PM, I came into this a couple weeks ago expecting to find everyone rebuilding old blocks. I was surprised to see all the new stuff in the FE market. The more I research, its clear that unless you are trying to build a real replica and can find a virgin NOS Ford block, what's the point of putting all your money and effort at risk? I have no doubt I could build a decent engine using original parts, but I would NEVER hear the end of it if it grenaded on me. She would make my life a living hell. After all, this is my retirement money I am gambling with.

There was one other thing that sorta clinched it for me. The boys and I went out to the old Texas World Speedway Saturday for the NASA-TX races. As luck would have it, a shiny new blue Lone Star Cobra with a 427 stroker was on-hand for its maiden voyage. Now at 140 mph, the car really gobbles up that long straightaway where AJ Foyt and Johnny Rutherford once traded paint, and that stroked engine was really roaring. I'll be damned if I will run my Cobra down that straightaway and have a connecting rod as old as me hang me out to dry.

Decision made: I am going with a Pond or Genesis, not sure which yet but I'll sort that out. Thanks to all who contributed this far.