Two Engine failures from Southern Automotive

[Ronbo]

I believe this was your statement:

Being 'forty years old' aint got nothing to do with it. FE's can and are built that don't leak, don't blow up, modern engines can leak and do blow up as well.

I don't recall any new motors developing cracks, blown out cylinder walls, ect. Your statement is flawed at best. The majority of FE's were not 427 side oilers and 270hp is about right for the 90% of FE's which were 352's or 390's.

There are plenty of block failures documented on this forum none of which are new blocks. However I will contest that the current discussion is leaning to component failures to which our "difference of opinion" has no relevance.

[Excaliber]

OK, everyone who has had a 352 built by SA raise your hand?

...I rest my case.

If your going to compare an FE to it's modern equivelant after market block, a side oiler is the only reasonable comparison. The thin wall construction of the side oiler is a known issue and easily overcome with proper attention to detail. The modern Shelby block also has known issues which need to be addressed during assembly.

Ignore the details on EITHER block, new or old, and your going to have a serious problem no matter how well it's 'assembled'.

Quote from George Anderson, "Gessford Machine", THEE FE man (sorry Keith, ).

Take you time making this decision about the Shelby Aluminum 427 Block. You need a very good machine shop to help with the details and ensuring all the components are perfect. Wayne has gone way above the call of duty suggesting our company...but I would be glad to offer any advice I can to help with your project. We have these running in Kit Cars with sticks and automatics.... Expect to spend over 23K for the basics and 28-33K for the better street performance engine and 45-50K if you in Wayne's range....
Just for some basic information the Block is about 5200$, the appropiate Shelby head studs (Required) are 350$ and everything else is a function of what your looking for even if you don't go with the Shelby Signature series block. The parts add up very fast and cutting corners with this Aluminum Block is not as easy as with an iron block. Many small detail can't be over looked with the assembly of this engine.

This is an old quote from George. No doubt the price has gone down and the Shelby quality has gone up. The principal argument still stands, the Shelby block requires significant machine shop work of a high order, as can be the case for a side oiler. I assume the Shelby block is capable of 9000 rpm, the side oiler block certainly is!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by lineslinger

Maybe you should have checked it out before offering up your vague and speculative hearsay
If you are going to volunteer an implication with unsubstantiated sources, its just another ride on the rip em' up bandwagon, regardless of the volume of posts participated in.
Factual information lends to honesty, "I heard" is for junior high kids.
I have never done biz with SA nor have any association with them but I have listened to the varied opinions like many here
A quality preference might be to hear both sides before dropping such a vague hammer as the one you are tossing around.

Maybe you're right, but I love to stir up the pot.

I heard this from several people who were there, but their cars were not the ones. Although I know more details, I was hoping that someone with better knowledge would say something, but alot of times, people want to keep things hush hush. Everytime I have a problem with somebody, I dont post it, at least at this time.

I have had "expert" engine builders/assemblers assemble my engine(s) with the rockers not spaced correctly on the shaft, pushrods rubbing the intake, etc. When a novice engine assembler like myself can spot significant deviations from what I consider proper engine assembly, it makes me wonder about the general quality of work being done out there by people who I think really shouldn't be doing it. Even with any big name builder, sometimes the people really doing the work may not be doing it correctly. Roll the dice.

[Nantucket427]

I never spent a dime with them but both Bill and Susan have gone out of there way to help me. They originaly built the motor in my car when they were Superformance Dealers.
The control over an engine stops the day it leaves the shop. I can image how some people treat there cars and motors.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Maybe you're right, but I love to stir up the pot.

I heard this from several people who were there, but their cars were not the ones. ...

That there's what we call "double hearsay."

So...what happened to the thread starter? Some questions have been asked of him, and no answers provided.

[Gatorac]

I have an SA motor. I bought it from SA. It leaked so bad when it arrived that I could not drive the car without repairing the leak. How is it that an engine that is "ran in for 2 hours on a test stand" has a major intake manifold oil leak? There was oil in the bottom of the shipping crate for cryin out loud. I'm gonna go out an a limb here and say it probably didn't run for more then 2 minutes if at all.

I heard all of the stories about how great the service was from the owners of SA. They were great hosts to the DSCC. They are really nice people. That is why I chose them for my project. They were willing to help with my oil leak problems. At what point to we say "gee, why do they have to provide so much service for engine problems after the sale"??????? And I only had to trailer the car to Atlanta for them to fix it. Good service is only half of the equation. You have to have a quality product too.

Think about this for a minute. How many posts on this forum have you seen with people saying how great KCI was with fixing the problem with thier new engine?

[Jamo]

Ernie's post/quote from George concerning the cost of a Shelby motor raises a question or two. Many of us from years ago paid similar prices for "built" BBs (iron and arruminum) from well-known masters, and there have been few failures mentioned.

Just wondering if anyone feels if maybe...just maybe...low prices are a factor here.

[Keithc8]

I for one would be scared to death to send out any enigne without comlete dyno and dye test. We did not have to worry to much about a few oil leaks with the race engines we did as long as they ran good and won, but when you are dealing with Cobra and Performance street car owners it is a very important issue. We have very few problems with the performance or durabiltiy of our engines. One of our biggest concerns with these aluminum engines has been getting the oil leaks sealed as well as water leaks.
This is the main reason we dyno test the engines to check for all kinds of leaks and any parts that may be a problem that we can check any other way.
We take no ones word about a block new or used and pressure test all of them. I gotten Genesis, Pond, Shelby, Ford Racing and about all other makes that have had a porosity problem. Matter of fact we have more problems with blocks than about any other part of the engine and most of them are new. We take nothing for granted and try to check all of the parts we use.
We can not charge NASCAR prices and I can not pay my guys what most all of you make by no means but we try to do the best engine for the money. Price is a concern for everyone but you normally get what you paid for and pay for what you get. Even when an engine leave our shop I worry about the things that can be done to it during the install and have fixed some that I know where screwed up during the install. If we have any problems with an engine we loose money because we are working on such a tight margin anymore.
We send a lot of engines out of the country because of our reputation and quality and we sure can not afford to ship them back and forth because of a problem. We break the engine in on the dyno, then check all of the bolts again, check the valves, look for any leaks that need to be fixed and inspect the filter before we start to makes pulls on the engine to tune it. We then tune the engine for max power and correct air fuel ratio on the dyno. With all of this deal the customer may still have to do some fine tunign due to their location, air cleaner used if we do not have it, headers and side pipes used. We even send a letter along with everything to look at and check. Have a large paper attached to the engine telling the customer to check the timing when installed because the MSD boxes vary sometimes. Customer called recently and his engine was not running as good as he thought it should. I told him about this and he was sure the shop had checked it that installed the engine. Guees what, they had not checked it and he put about 2000 miles on the engine with 50 degrees timing. I told him that I had hoped he had not hurt the engine. He even had it on a chassi dyno running it full blast and tuning on it but they did not check the timing.
We try to read the customer's mind about what he knows and does not know because I have been doing this a long time and have seen alot of stuff done to engines. Communication is very important to making sure that you have a happy customer when he gets his engine or complete car. This is an investment and somethng that most people have been saving and planning on for a while. My guys and I understand that and try to treat each engine like it was ours and do it the way we would want ours done.
These are just things to think about when getting an enigne and what we try to do to make it a happy occasion. The parts are made by humans and built by humans so you need a lot of check points and final dyno check point. Even the Shuttle has a problem every now and then. I do feel that the parts and technology have out grown some of the older companies that do not change with it. Good luck to all, Keith Craft

[diegokid]

I have never owned a Ford FE motor until now. In reality I've never owned a Ford I could keep running except for the inline six truck motor. When I decided to build by Cobra I came real close to doing the Bowtie thing, if the 427 Chevy would have been available I probably would have. After talking to several people I was assured the FE would be different. I found a 1967 390 in a junkyard for $25.00 standard bore standard crank.

Bill and Susan built that motor for the wife and I, it was installed in a car from a small town in AL. I started the car for the first time last weekend. I primed the oil system and ran the drill motor for about 10 minutes at 50 PSI. After putting the distributer back in and starting the car it ran fine. Lopey idle that clears up with a little RPM off idle. No blue or black smoke. There was one minor issue with the remote oil filter that could have gotten by anyone. One phone call and two days a new one shows up at my door.

So far I have had a very good expierence with SA. I know that the company I bought my car from has used them for many years. Only time will tell the story about the FE's reliability for me.

[Barry_R]

I have been watching this thread, but have resisted making any comments until I could see where it was headed. I will mirror some of the points Keith made.

I do a far lower volume of engines than he does - or SA. I actively sell every customer on dyno testing these for the exact same reasons - you simply can't identify all possible issues, and verify that you are delivering a good product without a true load test.

As hard as we work on getting them perfect, I have found both water and oil leaks when they've gone on the dyno - and they are easily fixed there compared to fixing them in the car. Oil leaks tend to become visible when you have crankcase pressure - and you only get that when the engine is making power.

As well as the technology and parts changes over the years, we must remember that this is a still a 40 year old piece of architecture. It's just like building a flathead was in the 1970s. Our expectations for engine performance, appearance, reliability, and fluid retention are far higher than they were when the engines were new. That is not at all a "bad thing", but it does pose a greater challenge for the builder.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

As well as the technology and parts changes over the years, we must remember that this is a still a 40 year old piece of architecture. It's just like building a flathead was in the 1970s. Our expectations for engine performance, appearance, reliability, and fluid retention are far higher than they were when the engines were new. That is not at all a "bad thing", but it does pose a greater challenge for the builder.

In and after High Skewl (74-75) we raced FE's in a 55 Ford. Anyone ever put a rear crankshaft rope seal in? Seems like NASA designed it to me

The parts today are SO much better (Machining too) than when I built my own motors.

Where is the OP?

I can't be the only one holding and ready to throw the BS flag.

E

[427 S/O]

On the money E, If an FE could talk, she would blush with all the available care and hi tech presents she has at her desposal today. I feel sad for the ladies that come up short........

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

On the money E, If an FE could talk, she would blush with all the available care and hi tech presents she has at her desposal today. I feel sad for the ladies that come up short........

[Donald Campbell]

[Thank you for your patience

[Donald Campbell]

Originally Posted by Great Asp

In and after High Skewl (74-75) we raced FE's in a 55 Ford. Anyone ever put a rear crankshaft rope seal in? Seems like NASA designed it to me

The parts today are SO much better (Machining too) than when I built my own motors.

Where is the OP?

I can't be the only one holding and ready to throw the BS flag.

E

The OP is right here reading all judgements, opinions, comments with great interest and enjoyment. Don't throw the BS flag yet because you might get some on you as it is now pretty clear that many others have had EXACTLY the same experience that I have had with SA.

To clarify my experience, I am happy to let you know that my first 427 SA motor was installed by Unique Motorcars - I think they are reasonably qualified! When the car arrived I had AutoStrada, a vintage race car builder and restorer manage the start-up. We could not get the motor to start and Bill was absolutely no help. All we heard was "This motor was run for three hours" over and over again. We finally spun the distributor nearly 180 degrees and replaced all electronics and it finally started.(Remember, "It was run for three hours") It ran poorly but we had oil pressure and we took it around the block. Oil pressure dropped and we immediately ran her home where we found the oil full of coolant. Bill to this day has not explained what went wrong. (Although he bragged to AutoStrada during the second failure "That this had not happened in 900 motors and my first failed motor was already resold to a guy that has put 1200 miles on it in his ERA cobra" - This was a great thing to hear when I am losing my second summer in a row due to engine challenges!)
Bill offered to replace this first failed motor (originally installed in a painted and finished car before the body went on I might add ) and 4 weeks later we received the "replacement". This motor had not even been run. Oil was new, no carbon in the exhaust, absolutely no fuel in the carb. The fuel lines were used and the fittings stripped. The turkey pan was modified with a saw of some kind and was absolutely carved up and still had burrs and "sharpey" pen marks everywhere. The Canton oil pan was scatched and chewed up like the motor had been slid across the shop floor and the oil pan drain plug was stripped by tightening with pliers or a vise grip. There were missmatched fasteners everywhere. In fact, completely different fasteners were used on the second motor. This replacement motor arrived incomplete and was in such poor condition and was so poorly built that we stripped it to find undamaged parts from the two motors to try to create one that looked something like a $14,000.00 motor. AutoStrada commented, "If SA went to the time and effort to replace the first motor why did they send such junk?" This motor started and we ran it for a couple of hours realizing that it just did not run right and it leaked oil like crazy. We decided to dyno at Meridian Performance in Bellingham and loaded the car into the trailer. These guy's were great. We were doing our first run -up on the dyno when the rocker assembly came apart. We opened up both valve covers and the rockers were not even finger tight. A used bolt had broken and come apart holding the rocker assembly and had thrashed around. This day ended fast. I had Meridian fix leaks (over one inch gap in the gasket material) and replace broken hardware. Since the first headers were custom made for the first motor we did some more custom fitting, retuning and found parts (springs) missing in the "new" Holley carb. I did not get one call from Bill - not one. We all got lucky here as there was no major damage. I sent Bill an invoice and got a nasty letter and a partial payment - broken bolt and push rods ONLY. So I lost my second summer with the car. Zero professionalism or pride in workmanship was experienced with SA whatsoever!

Thank you to those of you who have shared similar experiences. It helps to know that this is a reasonably common SA experience and that I did not just get ripped off because I am on the other side of the country. To those of you who are quick to wave the BS flag feel free to contact me directly and I can back up every comment with letters, photographs and conversations with the two pro shops that salvaged my experience for me. If this is still not enough for you, since I must be a "first poster" a "troll" or a "BS'r", feel free to do business with SA and best of luck! I know I for one work too hard for my money to line the pockets of opportunists and BS'rs who talk a great product, take your money in advance and then ship you junk.

[Great Asp]

Donald,

I was still holding the BS flag .

I find this information to be of much more use in informing us as to the problems you are having. As I said before, the complete history as you have it is what we need to figure out what is going on.

It does not sound good, at all.

You are correct, several people have posted "their own" experience with SA, which is really the only type of post that can be considered whether it be Pro or Con.

I think you have placed the ball back into Bill's court. I can't imagine him not wanting to post what he thinks happened on this (these) builds.

One point of thought I have, is that I often find one engine builder does not like another builder's work. They have negitive things to say right away about the other guy, especially when they do not know each other.

Just so you know I have not ever had a motor built by SA, nor do I have first hand experience dealing with Bill. So I have no opinion directly on SA.

I am truly sorry you have had so much trouble, money lose, and summers gone. I retract my BS flag.

Eric

PS BTW, what car are you building????

[DAVID GAGNARD]

One point of thought I have, is that I often find one engine builder does not like another builder's work. They have negitive things to say right away about the other guy, especially when they do not know each other.

I've seen the same thing on occasion, I chaulk it up to the fact that the "other guy" is their competition!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I build my own engines, but I do buy some parts and pieces from some of the top builders....I let the builder's reputation speak for itself.....anyone building anything is going to have a failure sometimes, it's how often they have failures and what they do about them that I'm interested in.....

BTW: I would NEVER want to go into business building any kind of engines for the general public!!!!!!!!!!!!!!there are way too many things the builder can't control that can cause engine failure....

One transmission shop told me the number one reason of failures of transmission he builds is the customer forgets to put oil/fluid in them after they install them, he has to ship them "dry".........and then the customer complains the trans. only lasted a few miles before burning up, gee, ya think so................:r olleyes:

David

[Donald Campbell]

Thanks Eric. I appreciate and respect your comments, on all posts related to mine, very much.

My car is a Unique Motorcars 427 SC and I look forward to enjoying it much more. Truth is, with what I have experienced I will build my next motor myself. I have never done this before but I can't imagine it being as bad an experience and at least I know I will get better support!

[Excaliber]

From what I have seen here on Club Cobra there is very little of 'one builder talking bad about another', cars, motors or whatever. I appreciate that, I think it's very unprofessional to talk like that. I don't talk bad about MY competitors but I know for a fact that some of talk bad about ME! Pisses me off, but I'm not gonna stoop to their gutter level...

Donald C. your experience sounds SO bad it's close to the realm of 'unbelievable', or is it 'I don't want to believe'. Dang, this is just a horrific report. It's well written and detailed enough that I have to take it seriously and wonder HOW in the world could this happen? More than that, is it STILL happening and possibly more wide spread than any of us realize? I sure would like to hear the other side of this story...

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

From what I have seen here on Club Cobra there is very little of 'one builder talking bad about another', cars, motors or whatever. I appreciate that, I think it's very unprofessional to talk like that. I don't talk bad about MY competitors but I know for a fact that some of talk bad about ME! Pisses me off, but I'm not gonna stoop to their gutter level...

Donald C. your experience sounds SO bad it's close to the realm of 'unbelievable', or is it 'I don't want to believe'. Dang, this is just a horrific report. It's well written and detailed enough that I have to take it seriously and wonder HOW in the world could this happen? More than that, is it STILL happening and possibly more wide spread than any of us realize? I sure would like to hear the other side of this story...

Ah!, you need to get off the island more big guy!

I don't think you would ever see one builder talking bad about another in an open forum. It's always "Skullduggery".