10k in pocket. New block or EFI ?

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by cobrarkc

Ok I am a little confused here. If carbs are so good why aren't they using them in Top Fuel and Formula 1?

G forces? (I'm guessing)

E

[Fordzilla]

In Top Fuel, the addition of a Supercharger changes the ballgame. I don't know what Formula I runs. (I'm a straight line guy).

[Fordzilla]

Hi Eric, How's your car coming? Mine is in for major overhaul. It's scheduled for display at Barrett Jackson in April (If work is completed). I like the looks of your Motor's Top End. The color of your car & that motor combination is gonna look great!
Regards,

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by cobrarkc

Ok I am a little confused here. If carbs are so good why aren't they using them in Top Fuel and Formula 1?

Top Fuel is at the ragged edge of everything.Nitromethane is essentially liquid dynamite.Fuel management is critical.And as stated earlier,forced induction changes the ballgame completely.On my SCCA car,i run FI and a turbo.I wouldn't even THINK of running a Turbo w/o FI.


As for F-1 cars,peak power isn't as critical as in "straight liners".This is the readers digest version as i am not a F-1 guy.

[dlampe]

Sorry, I am just catching up with this thread. The point I want to make is that I don't spend a lot of time at WOT, although I do spend a lot of accelerating to that point then back down then up again etc. I ran the Weber's on the track and they felt good. Rodknock is right, they were tuned pretty good. I want to say that this is not up for debate. This is fact as it relates to MY car. The Weber's with 40mm chokes couldn't keep up with my engine over about 5200rpms. I switched to 45mm chokes and I lost everything under 4000. Thats not good coming out of a tight corner but it really ran on the top end. In that case, the Weber's probably gave me everything the EFI did at high rpms. You just couldn't drive on the street or at low rpms. The FACT is that a 48 IDA doesn't have the range needed to function at optimum levels with moderate to large cubic inch engines at all rpms from 0 to 8000. The Weber's had almost identical numbers up to 5000 rpms as the EFI but that is were the EFI kept climbing and the Weber's died. In the end, they look identical and run smoother with more range. A four barrel isn't part of my option list. As for cost, The Weber's made in Mexico with manifold are about $3000 plus a few sets of chokes at $30 bucks each (you need 8 at a time), emulsion tubes at $17 each and every jet change takes 8 at between $8 and $12 each and there are at least 32 jets in the set up. The price isn't that different.

[Barry_R]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

The EFI is better at almost every non-WOT and transient driving parameter

Did you miss that part of the response? F1 or any other non drag race is all about transients. In addition, a carb will certainly see limitations at some point in the RPM band - F1 cars spin at die grinder RPM - 20 thou.


Top Fuel is not EFI. They are mechanical injection that borders on crude from a technical perspective. But borders on magic from a tuning viewpoint. They are handling a volume of fuel that is nothing short of incredible. Their power comes from the fuel - so the more they can get into the engine the faster it will go.....

[FUNFER2]

Again, I'm not getting thread updates.

Anyway, although we've drifted away from the point of post, it's fun discussing fuel issues and performance. That's what is so great about this site. So, let's continue.

Barry- I'll email you about a short block & heads and evaluate cost between it and the EFI.

Thanks,

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Hello guys, I'm asking here for opinions and advise. I have 10 k to spend on my cobra and I have two choices.

Dynatek stacked EFI-

The Webber's in a Cobra have always turned my crank. When Dynatek came a long with it's Webber look a like EFI, I got very excited. Although I was confused about their computer being self learn, a few of you eased my mind & told be how it works. Now it sounds like a great product and looks fantastic. If I choose this option, I would like to polish, powder coat, ceramic coat and anodize some of the parts. It is very expensive though at apx. $6,000 + the pump, lines ect.....

New short block-

My 428 is a .060 over block. I haven't had any issues at all and it performs very well and sounds awesome. I would like a new aluminum 427 side oiler,..... just because, ya know what I mean Vern. I can not afford a RTR motor from Keith, George or other FE builders.

I'm thinking about using my 428 as a donor and buying a big bore for more cubes, short block, stage 2 Edelbrock alum. heads, larger cam and larger cfm carb. if needed. I have a Vic Jr. polished and ceramic coated intake, BG Mighty Demon carb. MSD 6-AL, Canton pan ect. Everything should swap from my 428.

600 + HP/TQ is my target, like many of you have. I have no problem lashing a solid roller valve train. I want it big & nasty for the street. I know the cam selection can be talked about forever but, that's not the issue yet.

I can assemble the short block or have the bottom end done by the engine builder. What would Keith's apx. cost be ? (I know, a lot of variables) just apx.

So I ask, what would you do with a 10k budget ?

New more cubes engine (hope for a alum. but, iron is not out of the question)

OR

Keep what I have, and buy the Dynatek EFI, and make it all pretty & cool looking. It should bring up the HP/TQ a.... little.

I'm sure a lot will advise a alum. 427 and more power but, the EFI is so,...cool for $6,000, unless I can talk them down. And some will also say, "it's your choice", but I'm asking what would you do.

Thanks, and let the fun begin.

Hi Kevin,

I think that the best answer to your question might depend upon what you want to do with your car. If your car is mostly street driven and you are pretty happy with the power levels that you have now, then I'd recommend the EFI setup for the looks and for the likely improvements in drivability and throttle response (and perhaps power) that you'll get. If you want to race your car and light weight is a prime goal, then the aluminum motor would be the way to go. If your car is mostly a street piece, I think that there is a middle ground that you should also consider. You will get most of the weight savings and a big boost in performance if you upgrade your 428 with a good set of aluminum heads, a well matched hydraulic roller camshaft and the EFI system. This combination should provide pretty significant increases in torque and horsepower as well as give you the WOW factor of the EFI setup.

If you go the aluminum motor upgrade route and your car is street driven consider this - if you use a radical camshaftyou will get a lumpy ide the the "mean sound" that you are looking for but this wil probably come at the expense of low RPM performance and overal drivabiity on the street assuming you are running a carb. Much of this could be fixed with EFI but doing both probably won't fit your budget. If you are driving your car on the street and you feel you need more performance than a good set of aluminum cylinder heads and a hydraulic roller cam can provide, then it would be better to go the stroker route to get the power. You will end up with a much more streetable combination this way.

I am a big fan of EFI systems and have built several motors including an ERA cobra with this approach. I have also built several fairly radical motors with carbs over the years. While its true in theory that you can get just as good of a tune with a carb as EFI, I've found that things seldom turn out this way in practice. The more radical the cam, cyclinder head, induction combination gets, the more this is true. The problem with a carb is that each tuning change effects a very broad area of the fuel curve. This means that a change to solve a problem in one situation likely creates compromises in performance somewhere else. The advantage of EFI is that you can make very localized changes in the fuel and timing maps of your motor and only the areas you are targeting are effected. All of this results in better throttle response, much better part throttle and transient peformance, and usually a better overall tune/more peak power. All of these things are not too important in a race motor which is operated close to WOT and peak power RPM most of the time (some road racing scenarios are an exeption to this). In a street motor however, the fun factor is almost totally about driveability at less that full throttle outside the peak power band. This is where EFI really shines.

I have a website that includes a little more technical information about the projects we've done with EFI. You can check it out at:

http://www.anitafred.net/HotRod.htm

No matter what you decide to do, I'd recommend that you talk to and work with Keith Craft (he's on this forum) on your project. He did the motor for my Cobra and I'd recommend him for either route that you're considering. Keith is very pragmatic about what combinations work best and he'll help you get the best bang possible for your buck once you know what you want to do.

- Fred

[RodKnock]

Kevin, IMHO, I would opt for building a solid foundation. Purchase an aluminum Pond or CSX block with some nice internals (rods, crank, pistons, etc.). The EFI can be added later. Also, the Dynatek system for an FE is $7000, not $6,000, unless you're receiving some sort of discount and then there will be some incidentals like purchasing the air filters, adding the O2 sensors into the sidepipes, etc. The aluminum block will save you 100-125 lbs from the front end and will make driving your Cobra more enjoyable.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Also, the Dynatek system for an FE is $7000, not $6,000, unless you're receiving some sort of discount

Just tell them you know me

E

[RodKnock]

At some point, I think I'll get the Dynatek FI. Another CC member and I investigated a group discount price, which Dynatek seemed amenable to doing. If anyone is interested in forming a group for a Dynatek purchase, just shoot me a PM.

Now here's the ironic part. That CC member who was interested in purchasing the Dynatek FI, decided instead to buy the Webers.

[Keithc8]

What we need to know is what might be able to be used of the engine you have. Is the carburetor re-usable, the distributor and wires, valve covers, oil pan, front cover and water pump? This all adds up when it comes to a complete engine.
I can do you a Pond aluminum block fully machined with a Eagle or Scat cast steel crankshaft, Scat I-beam rods, Probe forged pistons, Mahle rings, Federal Mogul or Clevite bearings, zero balanced and assembled for 7200.00. You will then have the cost of the camshaft and timing set depending on what you might want to use. I can do you some of our Stage 2 CNC ported Edelbrock heads for a special price of 2200.00. This gives you a total of 9400.00 so you have a little extra money for the gaskets, camshaft and other parts that you might need. this would be 482C.I. package that would make over 600 ft/lbs of torque and 600HP with a Performer RPM intake. The engine would idle at 800 rpms and cruise at 2000 rpms and scare the crap out of you when you stood on it. Give me a call at 870-246-7460 if we can help. Thanks, Keith Craft

Over 50 NHRA National Records set in Stock and Super Stock by our customers and myself over the years with FE engines. Our customers have several right now as well with more to come.

[FUNFER2]

Hello Keith, I'm happy you replied.
Yes, most everyting I have should transfer.

BG- Mighty Demon (I'll have to get the part # for cfm, may have to go larger)
Vic Jr. manfold (Square Bore)
MSD 6al. and wires Edelbrock
Edel brock water pump
All covers
Canton pan
Oval Cobra air cleaner.
Headers
ect...

I had Comp Cams grind me this cam. Solid flat tappet.6oo lift/252-260 @ .050 112 lobe sep.

When you're free, please call me. (402-781-2322 central)
Home of the HUSKERS! lol

And Keith,........when don't you help all of us !!! You da man.

[undy]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Hello Keith, I'm happy you replied.
Yes, most everyting I have should transfer.

BG- Mighty Demon (I'll have to get the part # for cfm, may have to go larger)
Vic Jr. manfold (Square Bore)
MSD 6al. and wires Edelbrock
Edel brock water pump
All covers
Canton pan
Oval Cobra air cleaner.
Headers
ect...

I had Comp Cams grind me this cam. Solid flat tappet.6oo lift/252-260 @ .050 112 lobe sep.

When you're free, please call me. (402-781-2322 central)
Home of the HUSKERS! lol

And Keith,........when don't you help all of us !!! You da man.

Kevin, you're heading in the right direction.

Dave

[Keithc8]

Well I say that we need to get those parts cleaned up and ready to install. If you send them to me all cleaned I will finish the engine complete to dyno test and dyno test it for another 1300.00 including the dyno fuel, plugs, oil and filter. You will need to think about what to do for camshaft, lifters and pushrods. What do you have for rockers. I think that you could use your parts and get this done complete for 11,000.00 to 12,000.00 dyno tested.
You may want to finish it but we like to do them complete and dyno test when we can to check everything. Give me a call at 870-246-7460 and we will work something out.

Thanks, Keith Craft

[olddog]

The parts you don't use, being a 428, have value. Selling what is left of the old engine may cover the extra cost.

Just trying to help you spend your money.

[FUNFER2]

Very interesting....
I did try & call but, no answer. I assumed you all take the weekends off.
I have the Erson shaft with END STANDS (thank you Ford) !
and 1.76 roller rockers.

I'll sell my heads, they are ported to the max.(I'll have to look at my file for the flow #)

This is my engine now. Although I sanded my block smooth and painted it and the heads my body color, with the aluminum block & heads, I would hate to cover them up with paint.

(I have replaced the valve covers with pentroofs)

[FUNFER2]

RodKnock- you're correct on the price.
Thank you for pointing that out.

[Keithc8]

I do work some on Saturday but was out today doing some things with the family. Call me Monday or I will try to call you over the weekend if I can.
The rockers will work just fine as well as the valve covers. We can install a hydraulic roller camshaft for 299.00 and the lifters will run about 479.00 with the custom Smith Brothers pushrods being about 179.00. You can go solid flat tappet and save a little money but I do like the hydraulic roller stuff. After you sell your other stuff you should be able to do a nice engine complete.

Thanks, Keith Craft

[FUNFER2]

Keith- you have a pm.
Thanks,