Zinc & Phosphorus -- Brad Penn Oil

[patrickt]

I run Brad Penn in my FE. Half 10w-30 and half 20w-50 and a bottle of EOS. From time to time the subject of zinc & phosphorus (especially with solid flat tappet cams) comes up. Here are the numbers from my most recent oil analysis:

Zinc - 1748
Phosphorus - 1368

[Bob In Ct]

Hey Patrick:
How much ZDDP is enough? Is it possible to have too much? Is the penalty of high viscosity worth the extra ZDDP? Why not add the EOS to a full synthetic rather than paraffin based oil?

A while back I watched my neighbor destroy his brand new John Deere mower by purposely adding extra oil to the crankcase. If 1 quart is good, two must be better.

Just my $0.02.Bob

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bob In Ct

Hey Patrick:
How much ZDDP is enough? Is it possible to have too much? Is the penalty of high viscosity worth the extra ZDDP? Why not add the EOS to a full synthetic rather than paraffin based oil?

A while back I watched my neighbor destroy his brand new John Deere mower by purposely adding extra oil to the crankcase. If 1 quart is good, two must be better.

Just my $0.02.Bob

The literature suggests that 1200ppm zinc is sufficient for solid flat tappet cams and the benefits begin dropping off at around 1900ppm. If you don't have a solid flat tappet cam then any of the good oils will work just fine.

[xracerbob]

My daily driver is a '06 TDI Jetta and there have been a fairly large number of camshaft failures attributed to the zinc being removed from some of the diesel spec oils that VW requires. I use ZDDP in that, but am switching to a high zinc (1400ppm) synthetic Rotella CJ-4 spec oil. There are many threads and thousands of posts on the tdi forum regarding oil analysis, chemistry, base stocks, on and on. The consensus is a Patrick suggests- much over 1600 ppm is not any additional benefit.

170K miles on mine so far and the camshaft is still in good shape.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The literature suggests that 1200ppm zinc is sufficient for solid flat tappet cams and the benefits begin dropping off at around 1900ppm. If you don't have a solid flat tappet cam then any of the good oils will work just fine.

Even before the restrictions, no oil ever had more than 1400 PPM. Levels at and above 1600PPM have been associated with corrosion issues. There is no reason to run any exotic combination of anything. Just use a CI-4 or CJ-4 rated oil (still has 1200PPM).There is soooo much B.S. out there. This subject has been beaten to death.

Jim

[sparks]

Patrick, why not use a 10w40 or a 15w40 ?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by sparks

Patrick, why not use a 10w40 or a 15w40 ?

Well, I would... but BP didn't make a 10w-40 when I bought the four or five cases I have now (that was a year or two ago). I remember chatting with the Brad Penn rep. who said that they were planning on making a 10w-40 because there was a demand for it -- I ought to check back and and see if it's available now or if they're still "looking in to it." I also think I remember chatting with their technical folks who said to mix the two like I'm doing -- I didn't just make that up on my own. BP really is wonderful oil if you have an old-style FE with the solid flat tappet cam. It's probably over-priced, but you get used to that. And the green color makes for very attractive puddles on the garage floor....

[55312]

I just bought 2 cases and they still don't make the 40 weight. The 10w-30 seems to work just fine without adding anything. For the first time in my memory, the oil pressure in my 1963 engine is down in the "normal" range instead of 100 lbs cold like it has been. So far so good right out of the box.

Tim

[sparks]

Patrickt, How many miles on your FE ? I'm tryin the kendal gt-1 oil for now ? I change every 1k so it probably doesnt really matter ..

[zrayr]

Cam Shield instructions detail how much to use to achieve a given zddp level.

http://www.cam-shield.com/index.html

btw, I've been using Mobil 1 15w-50 for 24,000 miles. No leaks, no measurable wear. It has 1200 ppm of zddp.

Z. Ray


Z. Ray

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by sparks

Patrickt, How many miles on your FE ? I'm trying the kendal gt-1 oil for now ? I change every 1k so it probably doesnt really matter ..

I've got about 4k on the engine and I change it around a thousand as well. I was thinking about what 55312 wrote and maybe there's no real need for the 10w-40 and it's smarter to just use the 10w-30 tweaked, if necessary, with the 20w-50 to get the pressure that you desire. Anyway, here's my full report for those that are interested.

[madmaxx]

Mixing the oil as you describe is a very bad idea, The two oils do not congeal to form a 10W40, what happens is one half acts like a 10W30 and half acts like a 20W50. This came from both Mobil and Valvoline. I would stop this practice sooner than later.

Originally Posted by patrickt

I run Brad Penn in my FE. Half 10w-30 and half 20w-50 and a bottle of EOS. From time to time the subject of zinc & phosphorus (especially with solid flat tappet cams) comes up. Here are the numbers from my most recent oil analysis:

Zinc - 1748
Phosphorus - 1368

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Mixing the oil as you describe is a very bad idea, The two oils do not congeal to form a 10W40, what happens is one half acts like a 10W30 and half acts like a 20W50. This came from both Mobil and Valvoline. I would stop this practice sooner than later.

That's probably why Mobil & Valvoline sell both sell a 40 weight. Now I do not know the answers on this issue by any means, only what the tech folks at BP recommended. But I bet there's a petroleum chemist somewhere in the audience....

[patrickt]

Got an email from a Joe Gibbs oil aficionado. He pointed out to me that Joe Gibbs racing oil touts itself as being full compatible between the different flavors of itself. Even gave me this link: http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/tra...or-Which-15946

XP1, XP2, XP3, XP6, and XP0 are based on the same lubricant technology and are completely compatible. Please download our blending chart for blending specifications.

Brad Penn probably takes the same position.

[elmariachi]

I do business with several oil companies here in Houston and the few engineers I have spoken to agree with Jim above that 1200-1400 is plenty and beyond that there could be corrosion issues. I am running Valvoline VR-1 straight 40 in my new flat tappet S/O and it has 1400 ppm of zinc.

Patrick, you note that your engine has 4k miles now, did you happen to do a Blackstone when it was right off the dyno for comparison?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I do business with several oil companies here in Houston and the few engineers I have spoken to agree with Jim above that 1200-1400 is plenty and beyond that there could be corrosion issues. I am running Valvoline VR-1 straight 40 in my new S/O and it has 1400 ppm of zinc.

Patrick, you note thatyour engine has 4k miles now, did you happen to do a Blackstone when it was right off the dyno for comparison?

No, unfortunately I do not. But I will tell you from my experience in discussing these matters with other engine nuts who send their oil in for analysis, the results of these tests are notoriously wrong. Identical samples sometimes come back with vastly different numbers. Mostly, I like to see a reasonable zinc & phos number, and no water or antifreeze in the oil. Other than that, I take everything it says with a grain of salt.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by patrickt

But I will tell you from my experience in discussing these matters with other engine nuts who send their oil in for analysis, the results of these tests are notoriously wrong. Identical samples sometimes come back with vastly different numbers. Mostly, I like to see a reasonable zinc & phos number, and no water or antifreeze in the oil. Other than that, I take everything it says with a grain of salt.

Just curious, how you can say the results are wrong, but then rely on the zinc/phosphorus numbers and the absence of coolant? FWIW, I have used Blackstone for analysis of my expedition Toyota Land Cruisers (I've had 11 of them in 20 years) and found their data to be extremely consistent and reliable. Like you, I have relied it mostly for detecting water/coolant, as these trucks are prone to HG failure after 150k miles.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Just curious, how you can say the results are wrong, but then rely on the zinc/phosphorus numbers and the absence of coolant?

That's a fair question! For the zinc & phos numbers I only look for a range, as the BP people swear to me that it really does have 1200ppm. If the numbers had come back anywhere from 1000 to 1900, that would be fine. If there was any moisture in the oil, I'd send them another sample to double check it (since it's still sitting in plastic containers in the garage). Same if a metal came back really high. The accuracy reports come from the forums on BITOG, Pelican, LN Engineering, and what not where VOAs of the same oil come back with significantly different values or where guys send the same sample to two different labs for comparison. I've only sent in a handful of samples myself, and honestly some of the accuracy problems could be the result of the user's method of oil collection. But, I suppose they're just like blood tests -- double check them before you sign up for the operation.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by patrickt

and honestly some of the accuracy problems could be the result of the user's method of oil collection. But, I suppose they're just like blood tests -- double check them before you sign up for the operation.

Hahaha, good analogy. And clearly the results will be different if you collect oil as it drains out of the pan versus pouring some into the Blackstone canister after its been sitting in an open drain pan on your garage floor for a week.

I've got about 3 hours total runtime on this engine, I think I am going to unscrew the filter and pour off a sample so I can compare it when I do my first oil change. Probably a waste of $$, but what the hell....

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I've got about 3 hours total runtime on this engine, I think I am going to unscrew the filter and pour off a sample so I can compare it when I do my first oil change. Probably a waste of $$, but what the hell....

Jeez, an engine with only 3 hours on it, I believe, will have a veritable shi_load of metal in the oil, as compared to what you'll see after it has really broken itself in. The report is likely to look pretty scary. Uhh, if you were so inclined you might want to put on the sample "Engine has 10,000 miles on it, this oil sample has 1,000 miles on it" and see what their diagnosis is.